Collecting problems

[Krom]

Here I’m trying to collect known gameplay problems. (arranged in order of appearance during play session). Most of these problems have one or more possible solutions. Some problems are trivial and some are not even a problem. Yet I’m keeping them in for the sake of the topic - collecting the problems. Once collected we can think them through, possibly finding solutions that each solve more than 2 or 3 problems at once.

1. Complicated gameplay mechanics
Despite the genre the game is still quite complicated to a newcomer, compared to other RTS games. Basic town needs a lot of houses/units/roads/actions just to become self-sustainable.
2. MP slow game pace at the start
The game might me a bit too slow for today, especially at the start. Later on amount of decisions raises and the pace is nearly good.
3. MP games start by the template
Players build their towns by templates, always repeating the same formula until 20-30min mark.
4. Peacetime in MP
It takes 60 min before PvP action can begin. There is no PvP interaction until PT ends, which makes the game very repetitive.
5. Unresponsive army
Controlling army has inherent lag of ~1sec because of tiled unit navigation. Big armies have collision problems, part of the gameplay with armies is focused on keeping the army positioned right when moving and guarding.
6. Army control
Player loses control over groups when they engage in combat. Limits player decision making during engages. Snowballs the game after one engage.
7. Towers and turtling in MP
This problem seems to be dealt with, as players realize that towers can be destroyed with archers and/or sneaked by.
8. Leavers laggers and newbies in MP
MP games seem to be plagued with inexperienced players who lag a lot and leave them game spoiling everyone’s fun.
9. Abrupt game end in MP
Letting enemy into the base means certain defeat. Players can rarely fight back. As soon as player’s defence is breached he is likely to lose and just quits the match.
10. Abrupt game end
The game has no winning screens and graphics.
11. Low player involvement in MP
Despite being quite popular, MP game lacks support for long-term player involvement: persistent nicknames, reputation, competition, clans.

Please cast your vote on which problems are the biggest and which should be dismissed. Maybe I have forgot to list something?

[Esthlos]

In my opinion:
1, 6: Should be dismissed: it's a big part of what makes KaM... well, KaM. I'm opposed to changing this.
Maybe a tutorial-focused campaign might help, but shouldn't actually be a priority.

2, 3, 4: Have you given a thought about Prebuilding?
(Ben! I didn't post that there! )

5: I don't find it really noticeable. Maybe I just didn't pay enough attention, or in single player it just isn't as evident.

8: Sadly, this is something that plagues a lot of games... I doubt that there actually is a fix.
Maybe a challenging AND scaling AI might be a solution, but that's hard to make and wouldn't actually fix the problem (why play multiplayer if you end up against the AI anyway?)

9: That's because the game doesn't really support multiple defence locations and lines; mostly because you don't need to defend anything else but your starting location.
Compare this to for example Starcraft, where it's common to build more than one base and where losing one, while being a hard blow, isn't strictly fatal.
What about reworking the Town Hall to be the roadless buildable center of far away expansions?

10: This could be easily fixed by adding end-game graphics... but surely you already know this.

11: I don't know if that's really the main reason. Sure, it plays a role in that, but I think that the most important reasons for this are 2, 3, and 4 in that it guarentees that 1x games take longer than 60 minutes.
For 2x games it's at least 30 minutes, which is still a lot of time.
Many people don't have that kind of time, others don't have the patience or concentration to stay there that long.
Also, this game is old... young ones probably won't ever find it attractive enough.

[Krom]

Before topic starts off, please note, this is problem collecting. Problem solution is next step and should be out of this topic as much as possible!

[Esthlos]

Before topic starts off, please note, this is problem collecting. Problem solution is next step and should be out of this topic as much as possible!

Off topic from the very first response... did I break any record?

[thunder]

Here I’m trying to collect known gameplay problems. (arranged in order of appearance during play session). Most of these problems have one or more possible solutions. Some problems are trivial and some are not even a problem. Yet I’m keeping them in for the sake of the topic - collecting the problems. Once collected we can think them through, possibly finding solutions that each solve more than 2 or 3 problems at once.

1. Complicated gameplay mechanics
Despite the genre the game is still quite complicated to a newcomer, compared to other RTS games. Basic town needs a lot of houses/units/roads/actions just to become self-sustainable.
2. MP slow game pace at the start
The game might me a bit too slow for today, especially at the start. Later on amount of decisions raises and the pace is nearly good.
3. MP games start by the template
Players build their towns by templates, always repeating the same formula until 20-30min mark.
4. Peacetime in MP
It takes 60 min before PvP action can begin. There is no PvP interaction until PT ends, which makes the game very repetitive.
5. Unresponsive army
Controlling army has inherent lag of ~1sec because of tiled unit navigation. Big armies have collision problems, part of the gameplay with armies is focused on keeping the army positioned right when moving and guarding.
6. Army control
Player loses control over groups when they engage in combat. Limits player decision making during engages. Snowballs the game after one engage.
7. Towers and turtling in MP
This problem seems to be dealt with, as players realize that towers can be destroyed with archers and/or sneaked by.
8. Leavers laggers and newbies in MP
MP games seem to be plagued with inexperienced players who lag a lot and leave them game spoiling everyone’s fun.
9. Abrupt game end in MP
Letting enemy into the base means certain defeat. Players can rarely fight back. As soon as player’s defence is breached he is likely to lose and just quits the match.
10. Abrupt game end
The game has no winning screens and graphics.
11. Low player involvement in MP
Despite being quite popular, MP game lacks support for long-term player involvement: persistent nicknames, reputation, competition, clans.

Please cast your vote on which problems are the biggest and which should be dismissed. Maybe I have forgot to list something?

1. The gamemechanism okay. Why is it problem? I like to this gamemech because it is somewhere between the round games. i mean on the table games and between the Civilization kind of games where turns are...

2.seems slow, but every second what you lost at the start makes huge difference at the PT. Anyway seems the players don't like the games with built up cities at the start...I think to every player has different opinion about the effective and good city...There are some maps where you can see prebuilded cities.Highlandwoods, lost roads or somekindf of roads......oh sorry the mapcounter stat is deleted so hard to check the popularity. Anyway the threetime speed solved this slowing problem;)

3.it is depends of the startegie. But the fast opening start or unlocking order helped lot to this. But im still missing TH, SG for making larger possibility for building part. Im sure this could solve lots of collected problems also. (Anyway there were already an idea to placing 10-15house at the start in the same time and after start the game with shorter pt. Its like prebuilding.)

4.Please, 60min is optimistic. I think to 90mins PT is more popular. But dont forget about the No PT games. Sometimes each players taste it for fun.

6. yes this is very annoying, maybe the peek of the problems. Divides under the fights and the not fighted units can back or somthing similar option could be really good...

8.its not problem. As i see more serious and more popular games have this problems also.

9.Siege units for active defence-> will be harder to attack a city. I know there were already tons of discussion, but could be good to count with the possibilities of these buildings, units, what kind of armies could be trainable in normal pt etc... I know the balance is the most important question for tH and SG units into multigames. But when you put the market in the MP then was a simple rule there. "Do not be stronger as the classical game style"
Very small things also can change things/trategies and give chance for better defending etc... (more effective farms, cheap market, shielded units higher defends etc.)

10. sometimes i see player's playing 115hours, maybe 7left and the player just destroy each city to see the victory screen. Anyway how is it look out in the MP? seems Ive never seens yet:D

more:
12. missed Downloadable userguide for Remake with good advice and samples. Maybe could help a lot for new players.
13.unmutable spectators
14.mapstealers and trolls
15.the game doesnt have woman (still the Supermario serie also have)
16.not added snowy rocky tile


MY vote for the biggest mistake/problem is: 6

[Krom]

@Thunder: 12-16 are minor issues. I'm afraid they cannot be called a game's problem. About 9 - do you think this is a valid problem? Not touching the possible solution(s).

[Esthlos]

Just remembered, this might be a good time to bring up another problem: it can be proven that Pikemen are more resilient against Bowmen than Sword Fighters.

I don't know yet if that's actually a balance problem though... working on it when I'll have some free time.

http://www.knightsandmerchants.net/foru ... =30#p44497

[The Dark Lord]

Just remembered, this might be a good time to bring up another problem: it can be proven that Pikemen are more resilient against Bowmen than Sword Fighters.

Your 'proof' is mostly theoretical. Without in vivo tests (real games) you can never assert whether there is a gameplay balance problem or not.

[Soldado con espada]

Just remembered, this might be a good time to bring up another problem: it can be proven that Pikemen are more resilient against Bowmen than Sword Fighters.

Your 'proof' is mostly theoretical. Without in vivo tests (real games) you can never assert whether there is a gameplay balance problem or not.

Here.


About the problem regarding building always the same base, I believe it is something found in all strategy games: a basic process that many players learn by heart to be better in MP. Maybe with a bit of randomised positions/resources it could be... alleviated.

[RandomLyrics]

Maybe with a bit of randomised positions/resources it could be... alleviated.

Yea, i thougt about it too, thats great idea, but its kinda hard to figure out some good random system.

[Krom]

Here is an updated list. The problems got a few marks:
- means problem is not a big deal.
+ means problem is a big deal

Again we are looking for problems and their importance/non-importance. Solutions will be discussed later!

1. Complicated gameplay mechanics --
Despite the genre the game is still quite complicated to a newcomer, compared to other RTS games. Basic town needs a lot of houses/units/roads/actions just to become self-sustainable.

2. MP slow game pace at the start +-+
The game might me a bit too slow for today, especially at the start. Later on amount of decisions raises and the pace is nearly good.

3. MP games start by the template +++
Players build their towns by templates, always repeating the same formula until 20-30min mark.

4. Peacetime in MP ++
It takes 60 min before PvP action can begin. There is no PvP interaction until PT ends, which makes the game very repetitive.

5. Unresponsive army --+
Controlling army has inherent lag of ~1sec because of tiled unit navigation. Big armies have collision problems, part of the gameplay with armies is focused on keeping the army positioned right when moving and guarding.

6. Army control during fights -+-
Player loses control over groups when they engage in combat. This limits player decision making during engages. Players often try to split troops before fights to try to maintain the control.

7. Towers and turtling in MP
This problem seems to be dealt with, as players realize that towers can be destroyed with archers and/or sneaked by.

8. Leavers laggers and newbies in MP +-
MP games seem to be plagued with inexperienced players who lag a lot and leave them game spoiling everyone’s fun.

9. Abrupt game end in MP +++
Letting enemy into the base means certain defeat. Players can rarely fight back. As soon as player’s defence is breached he is likely to lose and just quits the match.

10. Abrupt game end +
The game has no winning screens and graphics.

11. Low player involvement in MP
Despite being quite popular, MP game lacks support for long-term player involvement: persistent nicknames, reputation, competition, clans.

12. Not enough transparency in core gameplay actions (Duplicate 1)
Quote “Let a mill, for example, display what number of wheat it can process per X time period. Let the bakery do the same, and let the farms show how much they've produced in the past X time period.
Make it WAY easier to see if you need more mills, bakeries, gold smelters or coal mines.”

13. Maps are too small for MP / Towns are too big
Towns take much too many space on the maps. Even XXL map gets quickly occupied by 8 players towns. Yet maps size seems to be okay for army navigation (walking takes long enough time). On a sidenote - XXL maps take too much time and effort to create.

14. Troops hunger plays no role (Caused by 4, 9)
Mechanic does not have a chance to work - troops almost never get enough time to become hungry.

Please post about which problems are important and which are not. Maybe there are some big ones we have missed.

[Soldado con espada]

About "9. Abrupt game end in MP", I would call it "citizens/serfs are completely defenseless ", even against one militia, which is quite frustrating.

[Trip]

About "9. Abrupt game end in MP", I would call it "citizens/serfs are completely defenseless ", even against one militia, which is quite frustrating.

Why not allow them to fight back stronghold had a system were some units could fight back against soldiers. I mean woodcutters/butchers have an axe builders a shovel stonemasons/miners have pickaxes and blacksmiths hammers. You could make them them so weak they wouldn't even be able to stand up against a militia on their own but at least they could fight back a bit instead of the current stand there and die.
Actually this and all the other points (except 8) don't even annoy me that much what annoys me is having 20 or so builders standing idle after pt and you having to throw them at the enemy to not let them eat away all your food. A re education system would be great where it requires 1 gold chest and a certain unit that can then be reclassed at a school as another unit after a certain amount of time . This way it still punishes you by costing more gold, serv time and school time but makes some units at least functional instead of a waste of food. I always found it stupid that you would be better off sacrificing your builders to the enemy then to keep them in a completed town. Even though builders will probably still be sacrificed since it costs less resources to do that other units like miners will at least do something useful instead of hanging around at the inn or their non-functional mines.

[Esthlos]

Just remembered, this might be a good time to bring up another problem: it can be proven that Pikemen are more resilient against Bowmen than Sword Fighters.

Your 'proof' is mostly theoretical. Without in vivo tests (real games) you can never assert whether there is a gameplay balance problem or not.

The best solution for "in vivo" tests would probably be what Soldado con espada wrote but, considering that KaM's player base is not exactly vast, that would probably take years to complete.

Sorry, but theoretical demonstrations and test maps are probably the closest thing we can reasonably have to the results of an accurate "in vivo" study.

[Krom]

@Esthlos: Please stay on-topic

@Trip: I'm hoping that builders problem could be solved along with others (4 and 9)