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GreatWhiteBear

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 09:31

Totally different idea for peace time.

Ad a function for when making a map.
With this function you can select an area in which troops of a certain player can move during peace time. Also set a limit of troops a player can have during peace time.
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 10:53

I think Siegfried has actually got some good points there.
An idea that (is totally unrealistic but) would solve the problem: You can see open terrain at all times, but the buildings of your enemy stay hidden (so the fog only applies to villages).
Nah it sounds even more stupid now that I wrote it down haha. :)
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RiT4LiN

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 11:02

You made sense at first but now you are saying weird stuff.
Fog of war is one of the worst things you can do to this game.

Mainly because of the fact, that it takes you minutes to set up a small army. Other strategy games like Starcraft only need seconds to build weapons.
Nope if you start army production too late you're dead. Except if you're zerg in this case you can play reactive to some extent.
So if the enemy appears at your border, you don't have any chance to fight back unless you already have a middle-to-large army set up and defending your town.

This means that you are forced to play even more defensive as you always need to have a medium army defending your town. Think of the building time of this army alone, this takes forever!
It makes total sense to me you always have an army defending. If you'd see your enemy coming in the current situation you still don't have time to produce an army only to reposition it.
Also, it limits the means you can put into offense, which makes the game even more static - if you want to win, you are even more forced to rush and attack before the opponent has his army set up.
Because 1 + 1 is 2. The big bang theory is also true..
Did anyone of you ever play Command&Conquer Tiberian Sun? You could see it in this game perfectly. If you did not rush the opponent, you hade absolutely no chance of winning in the end game unless the opponent runs out of resources. And KaM is a military dominated game after all.
Yes and KaM and Command&Conquer TS are totaly alike. It's like.. the same game in a different setting...
Another fact that ruins the game for me is, that it gives you no chance of meeting an opponent army in the middle of the map for a huge battle, because you don't see where you could meet. Only the option of a siege is left.
You can scout the map, you just don't have an active vision of what your enemy is seeing. So you could find the middle of the map. Also having a scouting militia outside of your opponents base and/or in the middle of the map will allow you to have map control
Also, do you really think fog of war is realistic? Each tile in KaM has a size of roughly 2m. A 192x192 tiles map has a size of 400 meters, which is a distance that you can oversee without problems. Is it realistic that all units are nearsight, so they only see 15 meters in advance. And if there is a huge opponent army located in the middle, you don't see it until it is 20m away from you?
Its also realistic that you can build a barracks with 6 planks and 6 stones. And that the building is constructed within ten minutes. I think building a barracks should take maybe 6 months to 2 years game time to make it more realistic.

Also everyone knows that in the middle ages everyone had vision over mountains.

Also if you can see the entire map as a player, why would you have to scout at all. The map should be revealed initially its not like they have further vision if you've been there.
Look at the scale of other games, they are mostly an a much smaller scale.

Also fog of war enhances the problem of the milita rush because you don't see a single milita approaching until it enters your village. And then you have no chance left to react because of the long recruiting time.
Yes but now i can't see it either because I have no ability to scout before my first militia is out.
Additionaly, it lowers the effect of scouting, as everything that would be of intereset disappears in the fog again.
The state of an enemy base at a certain point in time is totally not interesting. Also the structure of the map and where POI's are positioned are totally not worth scouting
Did you ever think about why Joymania left fog of war out of the game though the watchtower was fully designed and implemented in the game? Don't you think that they left it out for the same reason they left walls out - that it destroys KaM gameplay completely? Think about the fact, that a game developer voluntarily renounce two features that were fully designed and would fit to KaM and to strategy games on a first glance. There are reasons not to implement both into KaM.
The lack of fog of war helps the singleplayer they never looked at it from a multiplayer perspective
The only way that I see to implement fog of war was to simultaneously increase the scouting range of all civilians by at least a factor of 5-10. And one outpost would have to reveal the whole map. This is the only way to keep it realistic. But obciously this destroys the sense of fog of war, so it does not work.
I agree that an increased vision range for an outpost would make the game much better. But it would have to be blocked by forests and mountains.
And regarding the questions: yes, I think that it is realistic that a revealed tile should stay visible forever, because of the mentioned large scale of KaM. Those few meters can be overseen without any problems.
Yes because vision works top view IRL.. see previous point
But there is another way to prevent both, the scouting and the militia-rushing problem: this is an intelligent map design with already established towers near the entrances of a base, so each militia attacking is a loss risk. Your base stays undiscovered and a militia rush is prohibited until you can build archers. But by the time you have enough archers which need some time to attack the towers, you should be able to train defending troops. If not, then the opponent is that much better than you on KaM that you loose.
I 100% agree that map design would help a lot with this issue and that its one of the points we should focus on as a community.

Second of all, you seem very offended with this suggestion, but if you read lewins post carefully you'd know that it will be an option. If you don't want to play with FOW then don't. You are not forced to play...

Also you claim to know how the game would change if a certain feature would be implemented. But this is completely and utterly retarded. The feature has to be tweaked and tested extensively before you can draw any conclusions. And this is a great time to test it since we're in beta.

Also <3 Lewin (showing some community love)
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Lewin

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 11:29

Totally different idea for peace time.

Ad a function for when making a map.
With this function you can select an area in which troops of a certain player can move during peace time. Also set a limit of troops a player can have during peace time.
Let me get this right, you are suggesting this when yesterday when someone ELSE suggested it you said:
Totally unrealistic
unless shock collars were already invented back then
I don't understand :roll:
And I don't really think that's the best solution. If peace time is supposed to let you build up your economy then I don't see why you should train troops at all. Sure it's usual to explore where the resources are, but you can do that with labourers.
The main problem is with defining these areas. It would have to be in the mission script since the map can be used for multiple missions with different starting locations. And I really don't want to put this responsibility onto the map editor, because I think a lot of people wouldn't bother (e.g. people who don't think peace time is necessary, or people who don't know about it/forget/are lazy)

Yes you make some good points Siegfried. The current LOS' are way too small for fog of war. But using your logic, why have any unexplored areas at all? Why not just reveal the entire map at the start? If we can already see across the entire map anyway...
But I disagree that you could see across the entire map because there are mountains and things in the way, and after a certain distance it's hard see clearly. I don't fancy implementing a ray tracing or similar LOS calculating system as that would obviously be stupid. I think an outpost could reveal a long way but not the whole map. Maybe 1/4 of a 192*192 map, but you're right that kind of defeats the purpose of it. I see your point of view now, thinking about the multiplayer missions I've played they would not have really been improved with fog of war. Except the times I had my base scouted... I like the idea of keeping parts of my army/tech tree secret from the enemy.
Any new feature we implement must fit with the gameplay and the style of KaM. We will make sure we uphold this and if fog of war doesn't fit, then we'll change it until it does or remove it. I think it could work with greater LOS. Here's an idea: We have two LOS'. One is how far you can reveal through the initial unexplored areas as I don't fancy changing that since it works very nicely and maps are fun to explore, and the other is how far you can see through fog after you've already been there once. The fog LOS could be 3-5 times greater and an outpost could have a fog LOS of a 50-80 tile radius, and a normal LOS of 30 or so. (so about 3x normal buildings)
Maybe this is one way we can get fog of war to work in KaM, because I do see your point, I just hate the idea of people spying on my base and seeing what I'm planning. I think we can come to some arrangement that will work, and if not we can always remove it as Joymainia did. I would rather spend the time implementing something then remove it than ruin the style of the game. (even with an optional feature) But I'm pretty sure fog of war can work if we plan it carefully.
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GreatWhiteBear

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 11:46

Yeah, you are right, I sometimes completely fail to make such connections. Thank you for reminding me.
My idea is unrealistic.
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RiT4LiN

Blacksmith

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Joined: 30 Oct 2011, 23:00

Post 10 Nov 2011, 11:51

I'm 100% for the ray implementation.. Thus a very large LOS but limited by mountains. It would be nice to have a greated initial LOS too, but i guess that will start an insane shitstorm with flames.

The 2 LOS idea is acceptable too tho. I kinda like it but prefer it to be limited by highground area's like in most rts.
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RiT4LiN

Blacksmith

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 11:51

Yeah, you are right, I sometimes completely fail to make such connections. Thank you for reminding me.
My idea is unrealistic.
You are a funny guy :D
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GreatWhiteBear

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 11:52

But then you should be able look down from mountains.
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 12:18

There are endless possibilities. Lewin's idea is good.
You could also have a 'trail of sight' behind a unit. You see that in many games: when you scout with a unit, the area you go through stays visible for a while. So when you walk from the left side of the map to the right, you can see everything that goes to the north or the south and crosses the line you scouted.
And in Lord of the Rings: Battle for Middle-Earth you see that units have a greater LOS in front of them than behind them (because they have no eyes in their backs I guess :P).

But I think all that is going a bit too far. However, an increased LOS to look through fog is essential in my opinion.
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Siegfried

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 13:17

But using your logic, why have any unexplored areas at all? Why not just reveal the entire map at the start? If we can already see across the entire map anyway...
That's exactly the reason why Bannockburn is completely revealed at the beginning. And regarding the feedback I've received, most people love how it really comes down to tactics.
But I disagree that you could see across the entire map because there are mountains and things in the way, and after a certain distance it's hard see clearly.
Absolutely. This is the point, where it becomes a game and not a realistic simulation. You have to abstract from reality somehow. What I try to do is giving you some points where you finally can decide what to implement or not. Revealing areas depending on mountains and tress would be perfectly realistic (and definately nice to play with one time), but this is not the wey I would want it to have.
I like the idea of keeping parts of my army/tech tree secret from the enemy.
Definately. We all want to keep our bases secret. But with the current situation, we have to work for it. With fog of war, we don't have to put effort in this since it automatically disappears again after a few seconds.

Maybe it's really a map issue.
Here's an idea: ...
That sounds like it's worth to be tried out. And it sounds like it needs a lot of fine tuning :wink:
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GreatWhiteBear

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Location: The Netherlands

Post 10 Nov 2011, 13:38

Solution:
Give the citizens binoculars.
Or satalites.
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Danjb

Sword Fighter

Posts: 288

Joined: 14 May 2007, 22:00

Post 10 Nov 2011, 14:46

Regarding fog of war: I think this is a fantastic idea, so long as it remains optional. I agree with you that there is no fun in not being able to surprise your enemy if they somehow explore your town early on (although hopefully this won't be so much of a problem if we sort out this "peace time" system). It would work brilliantly with these outposts, as you say Lewin. Also if the LOS of units is to be increased, I think that should only be for fog, not unexplored areas; that is, a unit should be able to see further through fog than they can into unexplored areas.

Regarding peace time: I think what you suggested is great, Lewin. Allow weapon production by all means (or even have the host being able to customize exactly how it works), but don't allow the production of any military units during peace time.
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RiT4LiN

Blacksmith

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Joined: 30 Oct 2011, 23:00

Post 10 Nov 2011, 15:08

Solution:
Give the citizens binoculars.
Or satalites.
I vote satalite
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RiT4LiN

Blacksmith

Posts: 28

Joined: 30 Oct 2011, 23:00

Post 10 Nov 2011, 15:12

Definately. We all want to keep our bases secret. But with the current situation, we have to work for it. With fog of war, we don't have to put effort in this since it automatically disappears again after a few seconds.
It doesn't disappear. It shows how it was when you were there for the last time. Also in the current situation it is impossible to keep your base secret unless you surround it with towers before the first militia comes. And even if you hold that off you cannot expand into the scouted area because they have vision.

Having fog of war ads a lot of tactics and complexity to the game and I see no reason why you'd say it shouldn't be implemented. Its optional so...
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

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Post 10 Nov 2011, 15:17

Ray tracing for blocking LOS by mountains and forests would be VERY VERY CPU intensive not to mention difficult to implement, (remember KaM is 2.5D, so we have no 3D systems in place to do this) so it's probably not feasible. Also, I dislike the idea. Mind you I'd need Krom to tell you whether it's actually feasible as he does all the OpenGL work and ray tracing is only really efficient enough when it happens on the GPU AFAIK. Mind you then the Remake would require a gaming graphics card just to run... and that would be stupid. (currently it can run with no graphics card at all as long as OpenGL is working and up to date)

@The Dark Lord: The current half-implemented fog of war system has trailing sight and I like it so I think that will be included :)

@Siegfried: Yes I like battle missions that are revealed from the start, but I'd hate it if building missions were like this.

Well it seems that the increased LOS for seeing through fog idea is popular so we'll test and tweak that when we finally get to this. But as I've said before, it's low on the priority list.

EDIT: All further ideas discussion should happen on the new thread here.
I will be trying to keep discussions on topic from now on.

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