Impressions of multiplayer tactics

[Lewin]

Does that imply the next update will be huge? I thought I heard somewhere you had also planned other stuff.

Well not really, although it does mean it will take a while before it is ready, because refactoring always introduces new bugs and so we won't be stable and ready to release a new version for a while. Most people will probably complain that it's a small update because it will take a lot of work to rewrite these parts of the code but the players won't see a big difference, just a few little bugs fixed and minor improvements.

[Yeti]

To return to the idea of terrain (or ground), I'm certainly not outright opposed to it. The strategic implications are huge, in The Art of War two chapters (of thirteen) are dedicated to the subject. Strategy features so heavily already in KaM, but as mentioned there are little variations in them nor the tactics used in their implementation. If it can be done right I get the impression some form of terrain could help.

[FeyBart]

(...)
Well not really, although it does mean it will take a while before it is ready, because refactoring always introduces new bugs and so we won't be stable and ready to release a new version for a while. Most people will probably complain that it's a small update because it will take a lot of work to rewrite these parts of the code but the players won't see a big difference, just a few little bugs fixed and minor improvements.

Meh, I'm looking forward to it anyway.

But as for the terrain idea, I think it would change the game experience too much.

[Yeti]

As per any features which were not in the vanilla game it would have to be a game host choice thing, and obviously it won't be something to work on for a long time yet, I just don't think it should be ruled out as an eventual add-on as it does seem to play to the game's principles.

[krisdw]

The topic hasn't been discussed for a few days but I'd like to just share my opinion, regarding the axefighters/swordsmen shield bonus.

I personally love using swordsmen and axefighters but I'm always outnumbered by the conventional tactic: crossbows and pikemen. The numeric difference almost forces players to choose for pikemen rather than swordsmen. The same problem is present in lance carriers/axefighters but to a lesser degree since planks (for the axefighter's shield) are infinite, whereas the steel (for the swordsmen's shield) is finite.

So yes, you're going to produce a fewer amount of soldiers if you're choosing for axefighters/swordsmen, but if you give them a defensive bonus against arrows, then they will hold their own for a longer while in a fight.

Right now, because you are at a numerical disadvantage, you can NOT win confrontations that end up like Crossbow+Swordsmen vs Crossbow+Pikemen. The Pike-player will have about 25% more troops than the Sword-player, while the Crossbows can keep on bursting out their shots for a longer time, and they will always win. But if you give the swordsmen a defensive bonus with their shield, they will hold out longer and the odds to win fights might be different. Just something to think about, because right now Axefighters and Swordsmen are useless, while they're such beautiful soldiers it's a shame!

[Yeti]

Another potential option is to allow two shields to be produced with one bar of iron. This would change things from getting two swordsmen for three pikemen, to four swordsmen for five pikemen.

Attack Calculations:

10 Swords : 550
15 Pikes : 525
Difference: +25 for the swords

12 Swords : 660
15 Pikes : 525
Difference: +135 for the swords

This seems much more in line with the leather counter parts.

[caykroyd]

10 Swords : 550
15 Pikes : 525
Difference: +25 for the swords

This original comparison obviously seems unbalanced! its not only the attack that has to be taken into consideration (15 pikes will have more life then the 10 swords, so they will most likely win)
though i still vote for increasing the defense rather than making them be produced by 1 iron bar, as the latter will be a bit crude (especially if you want to make only 1 shield) and you will still spend 2 coal.

[Jeronimo]

My impression of Equipment Balance
1timber -> 1 wooden shield
1coal/1iron -> 1 iron shield
===
1coal/1iron -> 2 iron shields
Its easier for Lewin/Krom, than having to restructurate all units stats.
Note: Dont forget to arrange later the Market values respect iron shield.

[Yeti]

By spending one iron bar I also meant the coal cost should be reduced to a single portion as well, as Jeronimo suggests. Unless you meant the coal in the refinery process but it seems odd not to mention the extra ore so. As for the only wanting a single shield point though, it reminds me of a sketch I heard once about a person getting uppity about accepting the free item they were to receive in a super market as part of a "buy one get one free offer".

It's worth remembering that generally, not all troops are going to be fighting at once. Even with a huge squad, the first row will fight, the sides will move in and the middle bit will sit there gormlessly - so numbers aren't everything. Having run a number of simulations using both 10 and 12 swordsmen against squads of 15 pikemen (using multiple formations and changing who attacks first) the swordsmen won 5 out of 8 attempts for both squad sizes, so 10 out of 16 overall. More testing is clearly required, but as things stand they seem almost equal.

[GreatWhiteBear]

Jeronimo, you have a really good point.
BUT, I suggest making wooden shields cost 2timber and improving the effect of shields by adding a defensive bonus (against ranged).

[Yeti]

As soon as you start adding bonuses like that you're directly interfering with the current balance of the military units rather than the amount of units you can produce, which as they stand do work fairly well. The exception being the crossbows being quite as powerful as they are (a more logical move would have been an attack power of 65), as it's a huge jump from the bowmen and even reducing that is unlikely to happen.

[Ben]

All these numbers are giving me a headache. I can't keep up with all this any more. 'tis a shame, really.

[mucormucedo]

I have a simple question. I play with my brother and my wife, we play for fun, but I would like to, I don't know, win a game. Everyone is making crossbowmans. How do you do that? For example in a standard map where you have to gather all resources(stone, gold, etc.), with a peacetime of 50-60 min. Not that kind of rush where you kill your opponent before you starv to death. A 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 this kind of game. Can anyone tell me and all other how to do this? I don't know if I should start iron production before food production(bread).
Other questions:
Is there a number of laborers, serfs in the begining of the game that I should have?
Shoul I build more that one building at a time in the early game ?
Are these correct?
1 farm -> 1 mill ->2 bakeries ;
2 farms -> 1 swine farm -> 1 butcher's -> 1 tannery -> 2 armory workshop
How about the coal? I don't know how many should I have for every building?
If no serf is idle, should I make more?

[GreatWhiteBear]

Other questions:
Is there a number of laborers, serfs in the begining of the game that I should have?
Should I build more that one building at a time in the early game ?

I use 15laborers and 15serfs, after some production buildings I increase it to 20-25.

Are these correct?
1 farm -> 1 mill ->2 bakeries ;
2 farms -> 1 swine farm -> 1 butcher's -> 1 tannery -> 2 armory workshop

Hell no. First of all, I do not calculate with farms, but with fields.
Second, it is more like 20fields(1farm) -> 1mill -> 1bakery
and 120fields -> 2swine farm -> 1 tannery -> 1 butcher -> 2 armory workshops

All of this is what I use. Still, it varies from match to match.

How about the coal? I don't know how many should I have for every building?
If no serf is idle, should I make more?

Coal? just make sure you have enough. What I do is pretty simple, I build till I have one more than enough and keep my Storehouse closed to coal.
No idle serfs doesn't mean you need more.
It is more like this: Buildings full with goods? Train more serfs!

[caykroyd]

All that GreatWhiteBear said is the same for me.

Coal? just make sure you have enough. What I do is pretty simple, I build till I have one more than enough and keep my Storehouse closed to coal.

I sort of build 1 coal mine per coal building, its normally perfect i think, no excess, and no lack.
I guess that by quantity you would need 2x your iron ore (1x for making bars, 1x for weapons) + 1x gold ore, but as with the speed of mining it its hard to say without just checking to see how it goes, like GWB said.