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List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

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sado1

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Post 19 Jun 2014, 21:34

List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

This topic is probably gonna be one of those that provoke the flamewars. I know exactly what's gonna happen after everyone interested will read the maps list. Lots of people will disagree. Lots of mapmakers will be, at the very best, sad, at the very worst, will want to find me in real life, then burn my house, then find my corpse, then burn it again, just to be sure. But please remember, while continuing to read what I typed below: we simply had to do that job, or no one else would. So please, everyone, remember: we want to be alive in at least next couple of months!

sado and TDL (and partially, To)




Having said that.



Here is the list, which is a result of some sleepless hours of me and The Dark Lord judging the maps that are in the Remake, or that were made since the latest release (5503). The hours weren't sleepless because we spent so much time on it, though - we probably just like doing that kind of stuff after midnight too much. But anyway. The list is available under the link below. But before you see it, a couple more words.

Frequently asked questions:
Q: WHY?
A: Well, we need to make that question more specific...

Q: OK. Why delete maps?
A: At the moment, there is around 100 economical maps in the Remake. Don't even ask me how many maps are there in general. (I don't want to install a fresh copy of the Remake right now to check it out xD) A new player, or let's face it... an old player does the same thing too! Anyway. A player, opens the list of maps. He scrolls it down. Then scrolls it up. Then he chooses Cursed Ravine. (Assuming he's not from Teamspeak.) Having 100 maps makes people not able to make a choice, especially when most of those maps look bad and their gameplay is outdated or bugged. That is one of the reasons we need to delete many maps from the Remake.

Q: Why do you want to delete/not add my map?
A: Because we HATE YOU.

OK. Maybe not really.. I mean, we might hate you anyway :D, but the real reason is, the map didn't fulfill our criteria - which you can see a couple lines below.

Q: Why do you want to delete Kaderto/Lake Wololo/<insert a name of an old map here>? I played loads of great games on those maps... years ago...
A: We did too, man, we did too! The problem is, nobody plays those maps nowadays (just check the maps popularity list...), they look very bad amongst newest shiny maps, and they have some serious gameplay issues. We cannot let the map stay only because of the memories. And remember - the memories are not something anyone can take away from you :)

Q: Now that you want to delete my map, nobody will be able to play it!
A: Thanks to the new download feature (that's incoming in the next Remake version), EVERYONE will be able to download the map from you! So, it doesn't mean you will not be able to play your map. What's more: we plan to actively monitor which maps that are not in the Remake, are popular in the lobbies, and the most popular ones should be added into the game on next release!

Q: What are the criteria for adding a map/letting a map stay in the Remake?
A: These are the criteria. Note: not all of them need to be fulfilled at once, generally if a map fulfills all but one, it is fine.
1. The popularity of the map. While obviously there is no way to judge it for the new maps, it it very important for the old maps. If a map is already in the Remake, and it's popular enough in 5503, it's probably going to be included again. If people like a map, we should not delete it. If a map was around 400 games/60th place or above that, it was considered popular. The higher was the map on the list, the more we could forgive it (for example, worse looks etc.)
2. The looks of the map. The Remake needs a certain quality standard, and I cannot imagine a better person than The Dark Lord for judging the looks of those maps.
3. The gameplay. This one is hard for new maps too, unless we played that certain map and/or had feedback from people that played it. We made the decision to not eliminate campy maps only because they're campy, cause many people love them. However, some of the most extreme examples were deleted (Lake Wololo...)
4. The balance - both teams' chances need to be equal.
5. We allowed most of the dynamically scripted maps, even if some of them looked a bit worse.


OK, enough talking. Here's the list. Have fun killing us :)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tJY ... sp=sharing
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KaMRemakefan

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Post 19 Jun 2014, 22:04

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

Niceee
The list instead of very fine maps.
The mapps who will be delete are indeed not so popular.

All with all: GREAT WORK! :D
KaMRemakefan is a fanchannel on youtube of the game KaM Remake,
click on the link here below to go the fanchannel.

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thunder

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Post 19 Jun 2014, 23:33

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

Hi!
Personaly i absolute disagree with this kind of selection.ok,did it. Is there any possibility to give a link or button to the lobby or the map editor where the user could download the all maps with only one click from a network arhive? If somebody would like to see more maps then just the basics then this is easier solution than searhing and installing one by one. I understand that the Remake shouldnt have to be larger than one CD (700MB),but please then try to find a solution for this kind of mapcollection.

Popularity...just wow. That list has tons of fake values...
What about the uniqe things?...


This map selectation is still subjective... or have you guys used a point system?


Doesnt matter.just kidding you. Regards for your long job! t
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pawel95

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 06:39

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

Fine, but I agree with Thunder at one point. Someone should make something like a huge .rar / .zip archive with all maps that are in the current version. Cause really, there are really some players that like maps and want to play them where you never dreamed about AND the download function is no reason against it. I don't even remember who made this map anyway :p but let's say I want to download one of paker maps that you have deleted (very possible :p). You can't expect from anyone to call/wait for Paker, so you can finally download his map from the lobby and play it :-I

So such a backup/archive-fille would be cool, uploaded somewhere on the forum for example.

Dead of Winter, western desert, desert line, winter comes, iceline deleted :Ookk
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Tiank

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 07:51

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

Good work guys!

Yep, some kind of archive would be nice, so it's like a photo album. Yes, memories can't be taken from us, but a photo helps to dive once more into a beautiful world of dreams and memories...

I'm surprised why some maps are deleted as well, but oh well...

About Bridge Disaster. I think there should be a consequence, to leave all original KaM maps in RMK. And this is a first map I've played in MP with my brother... ;).

Also, at first I was about to say, that you have my axe in case someone would want to make any harm to you, but when I saw you're not adding Lost City Struggle, I'm not so sure about it...

I totatlly agree, that there're too many eco maps at the moment, but it's not like that with battle maps.
That's why in my opinion Wild Land should be in RMK. There is no other 2v2 battle map like that around. It looks good, it's balanced and it's something different, cause it's narrow. It has it's own theme and it's fun to play on.

Where is my house should get a chance, it only needs some improvements on looks, but the idea is really cool!
Without honour, victory is hollow.
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kocsis1david

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 08:12

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

Why is Dead of Winter, western desert will be deleted? They are not that bad. The look is good and I liked to play on them. Which is the criteria that they didn't pass?
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pawel95

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 08:32

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

Oh wow, didn't even saw that original kam mapa were deleted also? What the...?
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sado1

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 10:07

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

I'm not entirely sure which will happen, but most likely one or the other:
-all the mps you currently have, will be backed up on new Remake release, or
-there will be a .zip file with all the maps somewhere around.

The "system" we used was subjective indeed. But if a map fulfilled three of the four first criteria (popularity, looks, gameplay, balance) then it should be fine. Additionally, we allowed some popular maps in, because we simply cannot delete, let's say, The Same Rocks only because we don't think it looks good enough - it is quite popular and people would not like it.

David - mainly on request of the author, To. Also, they are not exactly popular neither amongst the public release players, nor Teamspeak people. To eliminated quite some of his maps.

Tiank wrote:Yep, some kind of archive would be nice, so it's like a photo album. Yes, memories can't be taken from us, but a photo helps to dive once more into a beautiful world of dreams and memories...

I'm surprised why some maps are deleted as well, but oh well...

About Bridge Disaster. I think there should be a consequence, to leave all original KaM maps in RMK. And this is a first map I've played in MP with my brother... ;).

We really cannot follow a "if someone has good memories from a map then it should stay" criteria. Answer yourself a couple of questions:
-when did you play the old map last time?
-do you think it has a good gameplay?
-do you think it's possible to have fun other than "memories" kind of fun on this map?
-how many maps that someone/many players have memories on, you think we would have to leave in this game then?

Above was a general response though (cause I am sure someone will ask about that again), because Bridge Disaster is most likely going to stay - it only needs relocating storehouses and such.

Why does exactly Where is my house have an idea? I played it once-twice and apart from intro script (which isn't a big thing even if looks nice) it didn't stand out. Maybe it's because I hoped the script will use the buildings in some way, for example: if you find the enemy house amongst all the AI houses and you destroy it, you win. (If the author does so, I'd even advise to "respawn" the players after somebody wins, and make it so 3 or 5 wins are needed to finish the map) Also, we'd like it to improve on the looks first I guess.



As for the original maps. Since TDL was in the "commitee", you can imagine none or almost no original maps will be deleted. The two "unsures" (Land of Hills, Bridge Disaster) on the list are easy to fix (storehouses replacements), so count them as if they were in. There was one or two originals though, that we decided were hopeless in the current state of the Remake - Battle for Coal, for example. Simply can't be fixed, if you want tower wars done right, play TVOD2. Not to mention, we (as a community) don't like changing originals too much, so all the changes above storehouses relocation would be considered a blasphemy by many :P

However, as a personal opinion, let me state that I don't think we should keep originals for all costs. On the other hand, TDL's opinion is exactly the opposite, so overall we make quite a good team on that matter I guess :P
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pawel95

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 10:11

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

sado1 wrote:Additionally, we allowed some popular maps in, because we simply cannot delete, let's say, The Same Rocks only because we don't think it looks good enough - it is quite popular and people would not like it.

Or Frozen Waters :mrgreen:
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sado1

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 10:15

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

pawel95 wrote:
sado1 wrote:Additionally, we allowed some popular maps in, because we simply cannot delete, let's say, The Same Rocks only because we don't think it looks good enough - it is quite popular and people would not like it.

Or Frozen Waters :mrgreen:

Fair enough. I shouldn't use other authors' examples when I made a bad looking map myself :P
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Vatrix

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 12:55

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

I can see there is not given much attention to SP maps, which need really some improvements (like On the Way - it's unplayable cause of AI attack changes, Revenge - TERRAIN and some AI changes,...). I want them to be nice and playable! :mrgreen:
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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sado1

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 12:59

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

vatrix (CZ) wrote:I can see there is not given much attention to SP maps, which need really some improvements (like On the Way - it's unplayable cause of AI attack changes, Revenge - TERRAIN and some AI changes,...). I want them to be nice and playable! :mrgreen:

I won't pretend that I am playing single player maps at all. Also, the word we got from Lewin was that we need to evaluate only the multiplayer maps. If there are problems with SP then I suggest making a new topic about it - since I probably won't be the person that will review those maps anyway, there are better suited people for that (all the SP players around here).
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Tiank

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 15:02

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

sado1 wrote:We really cannot follow a "if someone has good memories from a map then it should stay" criteria.
I was kinda joking with that memories talk ;). But still, I'd like that map to stay in RMK, so it's good, that TDL defends original maps.

sado1 wrote:Why does exactly Where is my house have an idea? I played it once-twice and apart from intro script (which isn't a big thing even if looks nice) it didn't stand out.
About Where is my house, I like it for the same reason I like Random Crosses - it's fun when you don't know what kind of army you will get at each game. There don't always have to be fireworks in special maps with dynamic scripts, it's about simple idea, that makes gameplay interesting for more than few fights. But yeah, looks need some improvement here.

sado1 wrote:I shouldn't use other authors' examples when I made a bad looking map myself
I like Frozen Waters, I think it looks good enough :).
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pawel95

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 17:04

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

sado1 wrote:I won't pretend that I am playing single player maps at all. Also, the word we got from Lewin was that we need to evaluate only the multiplayer maps. If there are problems with SP then I suggest making a new topic about it - since I probably won't be the person that will review those maps anyway, there are better suited people for that (all the SP players around here).


Well well well. I made already a list about new sp maps that should be added in my opinion but the topic somehow died and sado opened a new one :p

Enjoy my list for SP: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2032&p=35001#p35001
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andreus

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Post 20 Jun 2014, 17:39

Re: List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

well done :)

btw you forgot about Tef's Snake ;)
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