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mutiplayer map TSK

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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 31 Aug 2008, 18:59

mutiplayer map TSK

OK i got a big problem.. We play TSK alot online over hamachi and i made a new map for it (since the existing ones are not rly rournament-like maps).
The only problem is the relief... It doesnt look like in kroms map editor. the terrain is generally flat...

second problem: my map is 130*160 and for a strange reason u cant explore anything below 130 so 30 is just black with the object on it and u can walk on it.

PS: these bugs are only in the multiplayer mode. The map is just fine in single player

Is there any solution to this?
Any help would be appreciated. I'm tired of the original maps

EDIT: heres the map + dat
http://rapidshare.com/files/141613410/multiplayer.rar.html

also included a fast made single mission so u can test it (however since the bugs arent in single player mode u dont need it).
mission1.dat and mmission9.dat in mission map.
multiplayer.map in mission/mmaps
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Litude

User avatar

King Karolus

Posts: 1231

Joined: 01 May 2006, 22:00

Location: Finland

Post 31 Aug 2008, 19:37

I think Lewin might be right on this one, the flatness is probably caused by the light value that was thought not to affect the map files.
If you want to play around with it, download the map validator by Lewin which you can find from the advanced files section of my website. Just write some random value in the box and then apply it on the map file and see if it changes the look of the map.

It could be that the square bug is caused by Krom's editor and it having trouble writing the correct light value to those squares? If so, Lewin's map validator might fix that problem.
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 31 Aug 2008, 20:01

k ur right... when the value is 1 u only can see a square around your base and all other things r black... gonna test other values now

EDIT: changing it to 100 makes the whole terrain white except for the square around your base
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 31 Aug 2008, 20:15

ok it seems when going over 16 the land becomes more white then the square around your storehouse + the game is stuck

EDIT: when goin under 16 the land becomes more dark + u can play + the water stops flowing

EDIT2: the black under 130 stays there...

EDIT3: -1 crashes the game, 0 is black again
Nothing seems to fit. Is there no way we can get the values of the original maps? i dont have the time nor patience to test all values...
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 31 Aug 2008, 20:30

with the use of qages map editor i see the light values r different on every tile... they varie from 12 to 32. some black tiles have light value 2

it seems like how higher u make the tile how higher the light value goes...
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 31 Aug 2008, 20:36

k so i said the terrain look flat but that indeed because of the light value cuz if i alter them with quages editor with higher values for higher tiles the relief is viewable again...

So i would like to ask some help from a more experienced person about this issue...
txs

EDIT: in single plyer no problems and u cant walk on swamps but on the multiplayer with the value set to 17 u can walk on it what is kinda strange.
now its bedtime for me :p
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Litude

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King Karolus

Posts: 1231

Joined: 01 May 2006, 22:00

Location: Finland

Post 31 Aug 2008, 22:01

What surprises me most of all is how differently multiplayer treats maps than single player does. It's almost like there were two different map formats :D (j/k)
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3821

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

Location: Australia

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 01 Sep 2008, 00:28

Litude wrote:What surprises me most of all is how differently multiplayer treats maps than single player does. It's almost like there were two different map formats :D (j/k)

Yeah, weird isn't it?
I have a suggestion: With JvKs map editor you can easily see what light/elevation values are. (and change them) If you compare them in the original maps then I think they match in some way. (higher elevation=higher light) For your information the maximum that light is ever set to in the original maps is 32, the minimum is 0.
If it is all 0 in multiplayer missions then you get the fake fog of war bug.

If you can work out some formula then I will tell Krom and he can release an update.

I might have a look at this myself at some point, because it's kind of a big problem.

BTW: Did you fix the problem of not exploring bellow a certain row in non-square maps?

Lewin.
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Danjb

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Sword Fighter

Posts: 288

Joined: 14 May 2007, 22:00

Post 01 Sep 2008, 09:30

I've also been working with multiplayer maps lately, and I haven't had the bug where parts of the map beyond the square dimensions can't be explored, but I have had the problem of elevation being considerably lessened in-game compared to how it looks in the editor, to the point where much of the map is just flat.

I thought I read before that this had been fixed...? But I guess that must've been something else (the exploring issue, perhaps).

I'll keep checking back, sounds like you guys are onto something :)
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3821

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

Location: Australia

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 02 Sep 2008, 08:29

Ok, I've done a bit more investigating and thinking. If I can find a formula for Krom to use then we can fix this.
Here's what I think is going on:

- Making all the light values be something is obviously not enough. Nick has proved this quite well.

- There is no obvious difference between the light values in single player and multiplayer maps.

- In multiplayer mode, the 3D engine relies heavily on the light value. This is probably because the map is revealed differently, due to the fact that there are multiple screens viewing the map.

- Normally, it does use the light values, but only a little bit in some places. For instance, the contrast in the hill of original maps is far higher than that archived by maps map with Krom's editor. e.g. there are big black patches on the barracks hill in mission 1 TSK. This is confirmed by looking with JvK's map editor. There are great contrasts in light values in the hills.

- The hills have very high light value, with lines of very low values going through them. This lines up quite well with the hight values, although the hight is not nearly as contrasted.

- The far side of hills have lower light values than the near side.

- The average light value for flat terrain is about 16, and it doesn't vary very much.


I have one idea for what the formula is. I think that is must be calculated from the hight. My idea is something like this:
The light value of a tile is equal the average of it's hight value plus the average of the hight of all the tiles around it.
OR:
L means light value
H means height
AH means average hight of tiles around it.

L= (H+AH) / 2

Of course, that is assuming that both light and height are using the same ranges. (so some convention is necessary, to change it from 100 based to 32 based)

The reason why I think this is because high light value tiles generally have low hight values around them. I will build a program to do this at some point. Even if this is not exactly what the Joymainia map editor does, if it fixes the bug then that's ok. I might make a kind of program that you can write your own formulas for, and it will change the map according to that.

Edit: I just did some checking and I think that formula must be wrong. It doesn't seem to fit. :( I will have to investigate further. I think my basic idea is right: It is to do with how much the elevation changes between this tile and ones around it.
It's possible that it might work with something far simpler.

It could also be a different byte, such as some of the unknowns that TB spoke about.

I don't know, but it will be quite a bit of work any way you look at it. :( I'll have a go at some point.
Lewin.
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 02 Sep 2008, 15:59

nice of you that u starting to investigate this as it is very much appreciated by the online kam players (including me :p)

if u need any testing online or any help, just ask (however if i have my last exam friday so it will be after that date i can help

gl

PS: if you're sure there a formula behind it can you tell me which elements could affect that formula. I'm pretty good at mathematics so :wink:

EDIT: noticed it hasnt todo with height only cuz if u check multiplayer mission: save03.map u can see that in a mountain of heights around value 30 have some light values of 0.
I think the light value have todo with the height + how the tile is oriented (how i should call this :S erm like it goes up / and it goes down \ from one corner of the tile to another, if u know what i mean :p). When the tile goes up there is no single light 0 value but when it goes down, like behind a mountain the light values 0 show up...
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 08 Sep 2008, 11:10

ok i have a question... the tool doesnt change all light values. I still got the black border. I sit possible to alter the tool abit so it changes the light values of the whole terrain
screens of the black border and flat terrain:
http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=naamloos1rk9.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=naamloos2ao9.jpg
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Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3821

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

Location: Australia

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 19 Dec 2008, 08:16

Hi Nick,
I have some good news! Krom and I have done some research and discovered that it is defiantly to do with light. Krom is very keen to fix this bug so he is going to make his editor save proper light values. He seems to think this will be possible quite easily.

0.5h should be released within the next few months. (no guarantees)


Just wanted to let you know that I haven't forgotten about this issue. I'll post more info when we discover it.
Lewin.
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Krom

User avatar

Knights Province Developer

Posts: 3250

Joined: 09 May 2006, 22:00

Location: Russia

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 19 Dec 2008, 19:52

I've made an update to KaM Editor and send it to Lewin, as soon as he confirms it's working right I'll release v0.6.

Light value is:
FitToRange((HeightOfTile-(HeightOfLeft+HeightOfBelow)/2)/1.33+16,0,32);

This matches KaM Light very close, except it seems that KaM rounds everything inbetween 15 and 17 to 16. Other than that it's gives same result.

By the way, now KaM Editor represents shadows as well as highlights =)

P.S. i will look into square bug, now ..
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3821

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

Location: Australia

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 20 Dec 2008, 07:13

Well, it does appear to be working, 3D is now fine in MP. It also looks way more like KaM in the editor it's self, so a very well done fix, Krom! I've emailed Krom to tell him that it all works and I also asked him to fix a few other bugs at the same time.

@Nick: I asked him to resolve the "can't walk on flowers" issue, (as well as the other confusions with objects) as I heard you find that annoying. :wink:

@Krom: I think I know why everything around 16 is rounded. It is so that you don't end up with patchy light on flatish ground. Everything that is fairly level should look flat, and not with light and dark patches because of small height differences. But I wouldn't worry too much, as I said, it looks great!

@Everyone: Hopefully we now will be able to make trouble free MP missions!
Lewin.
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