Former Site Admin
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Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)
Former Site Admin
Posts: 3814
Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00
Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)
Moorbach's Guard
Posts: 1044
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 12:11
KaM Skill Level: Fair
Location: In the Market
Ways to fix marketrush on low pt.
Before main part, i think we just need to put ideas with a lot of text into separated topic.
To start with, i love short games, but i can't play it because of market.
To be honest, market just killed this type of game.
Reason is not complicated: we can build market, exchange food for trunks/timbers/axes/leather armors and win the game before all your town and army dies of hunger. It makes games with pt shorter than 35 unplayable.
The only way to play without pt now is to block market in map editor.
But we shouldn't think that 0 pt gamed can't be long.
Sometimes we need market on late stages, but we can't build it.
There can be a dynamic script, but we are to put it to every map we want now. It causes copying similar maps with different modes.
we are to put it to every map we want now
It causes copying similar maps with different modes.
My position is that game with any pt settings must be playable.
As i said, now only 35 and more are playable.
Time to allow 0-30 =) (ofc it depends on the map. On Blitzcrieg 20 is enough. But type of game is militia+iron. Like on standart map with 35)
Or course, we can allow it with a lot of methods. Fighting citizens, building walls and a lot of other absurd ideas. But fixing marketrush with direct fixing of market is much better all in all.
So, ideas:
1). Allow to build market after metallurgist's. It will allow to play pt 0-15, because in this case if player decide to play with marketrush, we'll be defeated by standart strategy with militia Beginners can suffer a little bit, when they have out of gold without metallurgust or miner, and it will delay their building much more. For this we can do some new messages (optional) like "Sir, our gold stocks are emptying", so player won't forget. But the main problem - this method doesn't work on pt 20-30. It just delay the timing, but doesn't cope with problem. But it allows 0-15 pt at least.
2). Make trade food-something unprofitable. E.g. now fish-->leather armor is 5:1. If we make it 10:1, the power of market rush weakens twice. Someone can ask: but i can still exchange even with this rates. You can. But it became easier to defend. When your opponents spend recourses for market, you can build 3 towers instead. If opponent exchange food for trunks (as the most profitable exchange, but needed processing), he also have to build more sawmils and workshops. So, we have even more recources which we can spend on something useful. Disadvantage: can damage games in very late stages, when you have a lot of excess food.
3). Combinations of 2 previous methods. E.g. do it together, or take a part from both of them, something like opening after gold mine and increase rates in 1.5, and so on.
4). Place for your ideas guys =)
Looking forward to your feedback =)
Looking forward to your feedback =)
Moorbach's Guard
Posts: 1044
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 12:11
KaM Skill Level: Fair
Location: In the Market
if somebody invest into normal base and survive the early game vs market abuser or rusher than will win becasue the market user will die in hunger.
Former Site Admin
Posts: 3814
Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00
Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)
Why? You couldn't sell food, so what's the problem if you are allowed to buy axes?Esthlos, we thought about that, but in this case we only fix trade food for leather armors. No problems to buy trunks, timbers and axes.
Wasn't the problem about early food -> items trade?
Isn't this the definition of overpowered, an unintended cheap use of something that allows unexperienced players to get the upper hand on much better players?Actually, the best way to stop trade abuse is to actually play well in most cases. Try doing a market rush against Romek or another player who can develop iron in 25-30 minutes. You will get some damage in, sure. But will not be able to win when your base is at 0% efficiency after your attack.
Sure, if you only take into account extreme cases like bad players vs the best players it won't matter much, but that is too extreme to be a valid counterargument.
Moorbach's Guard
Posts: 1044
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 12:11
KaM Skill Level: Fair
Location: In the Market
Moorbach's Guard
Posts: 1044
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 12:11
KaM Skill Level: Fair
Location: In the Market
I really think this market is quite well set now. True, maybe some adjustments would be nice, but I really would not increase the tax and the trades costs of it. That would make the market completly useless. (An ideal world The market should count with the delivery time also. Or using flexible values which is calculated specielly to the locations or to the maps.) There are some values when 1ware is equal with ~1,4-1,5 (1:1,4), but you can trade it to only 1:1. These kind of wares would have better sound 2:3(take 2 wares into the market and get 3from the selected one). These would be really nice adjustments.
I din't think 0-30minute PT is a serious game mode. Only for fun.
Former Site Admin
Posts: 3814
Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00
Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)
It was discussed, that setting low amount of food won't save.
On standart maps we can do army, place first farm on 25-30 min and survive without any problems. If we have less amount of food, then we should build farms earlier. But our opponent can produce weapons instead and kill us. He will die, ofc, but we'll die earlier. As well as now with marketrush, just another lvl.
I find this thought of Ben really funny. To stop rush we should play better. But all my reasoning means that we have equal players/teams in game. And that equal level is not weak. It's rather offensively to hear that i can't play and try to do changes in remake for myself (after 5 years playing MP in remake, lul).
Two players of equal skill. One goes trade for militia the other goes for iron base. The iron player will win in almost every scenario (again, equal skills, locations, etc.)
Moorbach's Guard
Posts: 1044
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 12:11
KaM Skill Level: Fair
Location: In the Market
Why do you like these rush market strats, are they ok with 'KaM spirit' ? Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick. Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it.
Why do you like these rush market strats
are they ok with 'KaM spirit'
Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick.
Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it
Former Site Admin
Posts: 3814
Joined: 08 Jan 2009, 23:00
Location: California - Pacific Time (UTC -8/-7 Summer Time)
In case of pro players skill it is, probably, true (I never test it), but in case of average skill - its not: its much easier to go for market strat (market, sawmills, weapon workshops, gold line, barracks), then to build iron line - you need to get to iron (also depends on map is it far on not) and iron line.Two players of equal skill. One goes trade for militia the other goes for iron base. The iron player will win in almost every scenario (again, equal skills, locations, etc.)
Also on low numbers of warriors mass militia kills few iron warriors, because of side attack coef and because you can move them around, or just invade from different sides of the city.
Why do you like these rush market strats, are they ok with 'KaM spirit' ? Trading what was not supposed to be trade is abuse or trick. Initial food is not supposed to be used in that way. Its should be used just to feed your city, not to get (somehow) weapons for it.
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