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Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 14:01
by sado1
Nobody actually prebuilds anymore, except for guys who don't understand the game enough. Just divide the city into 3x4 spaces and it'll be fine. Best players tend to simply check the loc in editor then either improvise or only make a half prebuild consisting of a city up to a goldmine.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 14:05
by dicsoupcan
actually sado, a lot of players still prebuild. Especially the top tier ones
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 14:20
by The Dark Lord
Nobody actually prebuilds anymore, except for guys who don't understand the game enough. Just divide the city into 3x4 spaces and it'll be fine. Best players tend to simply check the loc in editor then either improvise or only make a half prebuild consisting of a city up to a goldmine.
Hey! That's what I do! Guess I'm a 'best player' now.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 16:29
by pawel95
Nobody actually prebuilds anymore, except for guys who don't understand the game enough. Just divide the city into 3x4 spaces and it'll be fine. Best players tend to simply check the loc in editor then either improvise or only make a half prebuild consisting of a city up to a goldmine.
It´s how you define "top player". Top players should never ever been prebuilding. If people like blud and co. have 20 saves with prebuilded cities, on certin locs, that just shows that they aren´t "pro in kam" but "pro on Location x on Map y". That´s just how it is, deal with it. A good player should be playing first time on a new map without wathing the editor and be able to making a better army and economy than a "bad" player, who doesn´t know the map also!
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 17:15
by Ben
I don't agree with you Pawel, simply because I don't think one's KaM skills should be related to memorizing maps.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 17:23
by Esthlos
the only thing i need to figure out is if i need a 3rd goldsmelter and when i need to start recruiting because i think instead of recruiting using 2 school 17 minutes before pt you need to either start 20 minutes before pt and abuse the starvation period for the recruits (once recruited they have a good condition again anyway) or start 17 minutes before pt using 3 schools and a large stack of gold.
Each Metallurgist's produces 2,9 Gold Chests per minute.
This means that, in order to recruit 175 Bowmen in 75 minutes, you will need at least (without considering any leftover Gold Chests from the start, use of the Market or using this gold for other units):
if working at full capacity from minute 0,
0,8 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 30,
1,34 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 40,
1,72 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 50,
2,41 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 60,
4,02 Metallurgist's
Also, each Metallurgist's, in order to work at full capacity, requires at least 1,06 Gold Mines and 1,1 Coal Mines.
As for using that gold, I didn't collect data on Schoolhouses and am too lazy to modify and restart the test map.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 17:49
by pawel95
I don't agree with you Pawel, simply because I don't think one's KaM skills should be related to memorizing maps.
-.- You just wrote that you don´t agree but then you wrote that kam skill should not be related to memorizing maps -.- EXACTLY THAT WHAT I WROTE if people prebuilds map or load prebuilded saves, that doesn´t mean they are skilled. It just mean they are
good on the certain map/location.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 18:13
by dicsoupcan
the only thing i need to figure out is if i need a 3rd goldsmelter and when i need to start recruiting because i think instead of recruiting using 2 school 17 minutes before pt you need to either start 20 minutes before pt and abuse the starvation period for the recruits (once recruited they have a good condition again anyway) or start 17 minutes before pt using 3 schools and a large stack of gold.
Each Metallurgist's produces 2,9 Gold Chests per minute.
This means that, in order to recruit 175 Bowmen in 75 minutes, you will need at least (without considering any leftover Gold Chests from the start, use of the Market or using this gold for other units):
if working at full capacity from minute 0,
0,8 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 30,
1,34 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 40,
1,72 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 50,
2,41 Metallurgist's
if working at full capacity and only from minute 60,
4,02 Metallurgist's
Also, each Metallurgist's, in order to work at full capacity, requires at least 1,06 Gold Mines and 1,1 Coal Mines.
As for using that gold, I didn't collect data on Schoolhouses and am too lazy to modify and restart the test map.
thanks for the feedback, i did a testrun to shake off the rust and i actually made more gold then i needed so i'll only need to squeeze out a few more bows and it's done
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 18:27
by sado1
Yeah I agree with Paweł (and Ben?
). Like Romek used to say, "I could prebuild and it'd be even better but I don't want to be so serious about it". Prebuilding is sometimes needed, on a specific location/tactic though. Like, if you want to max out a really bad location, or do something unusual like iron (~10, maaybe 15?) plus lots of leather (~80?) on leather locs on Rich Land, then a prebuild is handy, and since such a location can be played only one way without pushing it to the limits (hence the prebuild is needed), I don't think it's unnecessary to use it in such case. However, if someone prebuilds each loc he plays, or worse plays one loc only, then I cannot consider him a truly good player. The exception is koczis, he barely plays his non-prebuilded locs, yet he still can make a nice city there. Sometimes.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 19:25
by Ben
Seems there is confusion on my post. I don't agree with Pawel's "A good player should be playing first time on a new map without wathing the editor and be able to making a better army and economy than a "bad" player, who doesn´t know the map also!" Because, since the locations are the same every time unlike in some other RTS games, players should be able to use the map editor to look around and see the landscape. For example, you may not know where your gold is. Where is the harm in opening the map editor to find the gold? Should a player's KaM skill be questioned if has bad photographic memory?
However, I do agree that planning is a very important part of KaM, and I think it is good to be able to plan "on-the-go." So that part of Pawel's statement I agree with.
On a side note: My games are often better if I don't use a pre build. It takes too much time to switch back and forth between windows. On the other hand, I play much better if I have a particular build memorized so I suppose that could be considered prebuilding ^^
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 20:43
by sado1
Yeah, the way I understood you both was that a quick glance over the map when playing a loc for the first time, isn't considered prebuilding.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 23:01
by pawel95
Should a player's KaM skill be questioned if has bad photographic memory?
That is still not the point. If you have 2 players on a new map. Both don´t know where the gold is. Then the guy probably is better, who can work with these conditions better. Same about wood. If a "pro" player doesn´t know where many trees are, he should build smart and don´t rush with all buildings so he will run out of wood.
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2014, 08:45
by sado1
Should a player's KaM skill be questioned if has bad photographic memory?
That is still not the point. If you have 2 players on a new map. Both don´t know where the gold is. Then the guy probably is better, who can work with these conditions better. Same about wood. If a "pro" player doesn´t know where many trees are, he should build smart and don´t rush with all buildings so he will run out of wood.
Now thats bad. Nobody's gonna play a map without at least seeing where the gold and other resources are (except the randoms ofc). How are you supposed to plan in this game, as in KaM planning is esssential?
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2014, 12:44
by Esthlos
Tried this at 1x.
After 75 minutes, I had
39 Leather Armors
112 Bows
55 Recruits.
So, if even I can get to half the goal, maybe a better player will be able to fully reach it. Can he?
Re: 175 bowmen in 75
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2014, 02:03
by Ben
Topic split to here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2426
~Ben