Balance testing release r4297

[sado1]

@Bo I love that, I hope it works for you. As long as not everyone uses it and it is not stronger than normal builds I have not much against market tactics.

I have not much against market tactics.

I have not much against market tactics.

[pawel95]

I've found a market-strategy, I don't think it's unbalanced, it's more of a risc you take.
At the start you build an early market, then you trade all your bread for corn.

Haha mr Bo is the reason why i come with the question about 1corn=>1bred. I wanted to destroy your tactic

Haha no Im joking, only saw the replay,where we have lost so far and there i have found this nice trading.


However maybe it doesnt fit in this topic, but what is about food balancing? You know, you had given shield units +1 defense, that they will be also used(and it works pretty well, never seen an game without axes/swordmen + lances)
Maybe we should think about the same in food thingi. Pro players normaly never makes bread(maybe later after PT, when it is a really long game) but normaly only sausages and later wine. (+fish). What is about to decrease MAYBE the condition+ of sausages??? Do you think it would be better than?


pawel95

[The Dark Lord]

No.

[Bo_]

Depending on the map you do or don't need bread.
You should always manage to have 2 kinds of food, so if you have much fish you do fish + saussiges.
If you don't have many fish but many trees you do something like wine + saussiges,
but on a map without much fish, not many trees and not many starting ressources you're forced to make bread if you don't want to starve to death,
since it's way faster to produce than saussiges.
Anyway I don't see what you are complaining about because most of the games I play everybody makes some bread. (1 baker)
Also if there's bread it's in early game, not in late game. Why would you make bread then?
This of course is when you're going for a full build (Iron + leather).
When you do leather only (like I did on Paradise Island) there's no point in making bread or wine,
or when you go only iron you're forced to make bread.
We don't want to make this simcity do we?

[pawel95]

Well i havent played many games, but up to here I havent seen anyone in RC for example

For me its ok, how it is. I sometimes make bread later after PT/horses/sausages and like you have said, when i have mass of tree, i will alway make wine. However i think bread isnt so a favorite food between players,because you need than more and more farms. If you make sausges, you cannot decide,because from one pig you have every time the skin AND the sausages. E.g 2 days ago i was in a team with a player, after 50 MIN he had first pig,because he had 2 mills and backers, so he had too less of bread. So thats why i have made a question about rebalance food. For me its just good

[dicsoupcan]

Well i havent played many games, but up to here I havent seen anyone in RC for example

For me its ok, how it is. I sometimes make bread later after PT/horses/sausages and like you have said, when i have mass of tree, i will alway make wine. However i think bread isnt so a favorite food between players,because you need than more and more farms. If you make sausges, you cannot decide,because from one pig you have every time the skin AND the sausages. E.g 2 days ago i was in a team with a player, after 50 MIN he had first pig,because he had 2 mills and backers, so he had too less of bread. So thats why i have made a question about rebalance food. For me its just good

wasn't that the game on DoW yesterday?

[pawel95]

Yeah maybe. I dont know, but it wasnt you?! It was chris,i think!?

[dicsoupcan]

yes it was him

[Lewin]

@Bo: That market strategy sounds good, I don't see it as an exploit. I'm glad to hear the lowering of the loss ratio is making some stuff like this possible. I'd be interested to hear if there are any other tactics like this possible.

@pawel: I don't see any problems with food balancing at the moment, I regularly see every type of food being used by both low and high skilled players, which is the ideal situation (we're aiming for the same with soldiers, hence the shields change). I think the wine changes we made really fixed things up a lot.

[Bo_]

It hasn't really been exploited yet but look at what you can buy with treetrunks:
1 treetrunk =
- 1 coal
- 1 gold ore
- 1 corn
- 1 iron oren
- 1 bread
- 1 wine
- 1 timber
- 2 stones

So what is bothering me?
With treetrunks, the easiest renewable ressource in kam you can buy every non renewable ressource... (Except fish, 2/1.)
For coal and gold it's no problem since coal mines are needed in big amounts and gold mines are still better, you don't need more than 3 of them.
What does bother me is the tree for iron trade... With 3 woodcutters you can replace 2 iron mines, so on a map like cursed ravine you can double your iron production by replacing trees that would provide 1 weapon workshop and 1 armory workshop, knowing that they would have to pass trough the sawmill first.
It's so easy to build woodcutters, doesn't take much time, you can place them everywhere and they're very cheap.
If a mapmaker only made a certain amount of iron mines then it's probably because he doesn't want any more iron soldiers on that map.
I'll complete my argument with a replay of a game we played yesterday on back in the desert. (see attachments)
Look at Matt's build on loc 5 (bottom right) and see the amount of iron soldiers he gets out of his barracks after 1 hour by using this.
Also take a look at my market on loc 3 (top right) about 5 min before pt.
And as last thing, notice how efficiënt our food prodcution was.

[EDMatt]

It hasn't really been exploited yet but look at what you can buy with treetrunks:
1 treetrunk =
- 1 coal
- 1 gold ore
- 1 corn
- 1 iron oren
- 1 bread
- 1 wine
- 1 timber
- 2 stones

So what is bothering me?
With treetrunks, the easiest renewable ressource in kam you can buy every non renewable ressource... (Except fish, 2/1.)
For coal and gold it's no problem since coal mines are needed in big amounts and gold mines are still better, you don't need more than 3 of them.
What does bother me is the tree for iron trade... With 3 woodcutters you can replace 2 iron mines, so on a map like cursed ravine you can double your iron production by replacing trees that would provide 1 weapon workshop and 1 armory workshop, knowing that they would have to pass trough the sawmill first.
It's so easy to build woodcutters, doesn't take much time, you can place them everywhere and they're very cheap.
If a mapmaker only made a certain amount of iron mines then it's probably because he doesn't want any more iron soldiers on that map.
I'll complete my argument with a replay of a game we played yesterday on back in the desert. (see attachments)
Look at Matt's build on loc 5 (bottom right) and see the amount of iron soldiers he gets out of his barracks after 1 hour by using this.
Also take a look at my market on loc 3 (top right) about 5 min before pt.
And as last thing, notice how efficiënt our food prodcution was.

I will upload a nice replay of 100 militia and 15 knights and 15 sword fighters soon, 15 horse traded through market , bought with tree trunks.

[pawel95]

Matt isn´t it cheaper to trade trunks to corn and give the stables than the corn? in 60 min PT you can manage i think max 16 horses with one stable, so with corn it schould be better,than trunks=horses?!


@Lewin Which wine fixes? i didnt realize the difference up to here in remake?

[Nissarin]

@Lewin Which wine fixes? i didnt realize the difference up to here in remake?

Probably this one:

  Code:

Wine now restores 30% (was 20%) and takes 9 fields to run optimally (was 11) through changed growth rate

[Bo_]

Just noticed, was the wrong replay. Sorry but I don't have the original anymore.

[Lewin]

Thanks for the info guys. It looks like tree trunks could be slightly over valued at the moment, I agree that if the map maker only gives you 1 or 2 iron mine spots then you shouldn't be able to just trade for all the iron you want. As a test I've slightly reduced the bonus value trees get (because they require a large area compared to say corn) and here's how some of the trades look now:
2 trees gives 1 iron/gold ore
1 tree gives 1 coal
3 iron/gold ore gives 1 tree
3 coal gives 1 tree
7 trees gives 1 horse
2 trees gives 1 gold
4 trees gives 1 iron
2 gold gives 1 tree
1 iron gives 1 tree
2 trees gives 1 bread
1 tree gives 1 corn
1 tree gives 1 wine
1 tree gives 2 stones

Note that the only change I made is to devalue trees slightly compared to other resources, so some trades will become more expensive, some less expensive. It will also have a flow on effect to wood products, making them slightly less valuable than before. So here's some trade rates for timber:
2 timber gives 1 coal/iron ore/gold ore (does that sound too exploitable? I guess it's a fair bit of extra processing and needs more serfs to carry it to the market than 1 tree trunk)
2 coal/iron ore/gold ore gives 1 timber
3 timber gives 1 gold
5 timber gives 1 iron

Of course if we do keep this change you will have plenty of time to test it in the next balance release or RC or whatever, I just thought I'd see what you think of these values for now.
Cheers,
Lewin.