List of added, not added, staying and deleted maps

[Leeuwgie]

Question to the map committee: "All for One" is quite popular (44th/558), good terrain quality, looks fairly balanced, and is also quite unique. What was the reason for it being deleted? I think someone said To didn't like it. What doesn't he like about it? I guess the top team can shoot the iron mines of the bottom team, so maybe that's the issue.

Being part of this comittee myself I decided to give a good example and delete some of my own maps too. Not because the maps have bad gameplay, are unbalanced or are never played etc. If I'm comparing these maps with my latest maps I think they're not adding better gameplay and certainly the looks are way behind in comparison. So those are the main two reasons for me. I think the list has really shortened already which is exactly what we aimed for. What's more important now is to at least look carefully at new maps before we 'blindly' add them to the next release.

[Lewin]

Thanks for the response To, that makes sense.

Regarding PAKER's map No Mercy: The list says it is replacing Battle Sun, but PAKER's list suggested he wants to keep them separate. They seem to be quite different in that Battle Sun is very open, where as No Mercy has a lot of obstacles (more campy). Battle Sun is popular in the current release. Any comments on this?

[sado1]

To be honest, I treated No Mercy as an update to Battle Sun, so I didn't review it again. Since I don't have my PC there for a while l: TDL, may I ask you to review No Mercy and make a decision with Lewin? From what he says, I think we might simply use Battle Sun and not add No Mercy, but I cannot look at the map right now, so I can't make my own opinion.

[Remake 2012]

Ho Ho Ho.. I download RC1... This is terrible!
Where is Dream ? ( new version) ? This map is not good ? Come on !

I see: valley of the equilibrum 8p, valley of the equilibrum, the valley of dangers 2 but... I don't see CUBE ? No Cube is a mistake. It has a lot of new ideas.

Center Castle - should be the normal version of the map without looting the castle. To the players focused only on himself.

Other War not good ? Is such a map as Neighboorhood Clash is the terrain better than ours? Rhetorical question.

I left the old Battle Sun because people play this map. So I created the No Mercy. Terrain is much better than the original but ..... not in the remake.

57 Dangerous Swamp 445 1.68 delete.... ????
60 Monsters Islands 424 3.70 delete.... ?????
78 Gorges 321 3.22 --- I don't like this map : P
79 Pirate Bond 318 2.92 <--- already in Remake
83 Center Castle 295 1.80 ( bugging map, but a high place, this map has the potential) delete... ????
86 Clash 8P 285 4.35 hmmm......
105 Clash 6P 198 2.76 - This version of the map is not needed.
107 The King Says 192 2.58 <--- already in Remake
122 Dream 152 3.63 old dream...

[sado1]

New Dream and Other War did not fullfill our criteria, I'm sorry. As for Cube, I will reconsider it, since the new version stopped being a 16 times copy and paste map. I don't remember why we left Neighbourhood Clash though... the looks are definitely not good enough, maybe it is the place on the list? (51st at the moment). As for all the Valley maps, they are very popular (3. TVOE, 13. TVOD2, 27. TVOE8P) which means they are gonna stay.

We decided that 60. is the "border" for choosing popular maps. Dangerous Swamp is currently at 57. and the looks don't convince me too much, so I'd delete the map. Same goes for Monsters Islands (60.) And Center Castle - Lewin wants to cut down the number of maps with 2 or more "versions", and Center Castle seems much better with the Looting Script. And, really, the gameplay is almost the same...

By the way, why are you mentioning Gorges? It isn't your map and I don't get why you are comparing it to your building maps...

[thunder]

about the popularity:
http://kam.hodgman.id.au/mapslist.php?rev=r5503
http://kam.hodgman.id.au/mapslist.php?rev=r6157
If you compare this you will see the two main group. Testers and common players. And the second one maybe

Seems the testers and the Remake players has different mounths taste.

An somewhere I agree with Paker. The problem isnt the deleting maps which isnt as good for a small group. The problem is there isnt a button/ recommendation for downloading previous maps. Or a link which shows the KaM repos where the players could find their favourite maps. Lots of players dont know this offical site!

Im sorry for this but seems the Reamke be a little bit poorer. I missed the optionality... but this is i am.
With regards!


PS:koczis asked where can he dowloads thunder's maps;P okay im just trolling;P

[Tiank]

In r5503, above the server list there is a box with info about TS and donations for Remake. Maybe there should be a link to kam repos as well? A button, like it is now for PDF, which moves you to repos when clicked. This would be really helpful for players looking for older maps (of course an archive of maps should be made then...). Also, with that link, player would eventually get to know this forum, which means they would get to know why some maps were deleted .

[Lewin]

I don't think it's better to have the Remake with 200 economic maps, half of them poorly balanced or poor quality terrain. That's way too overwhelming for players, especially new players. I think the reason why Cursed Ravine is so much more popular than other maps is partially because people don't want to try other maps on the list because they expect them to be bad, since in r5503 a lot of them are. With a shorter list of "only the best/most popular" hopefully players will be more willing to try different maps from the list since they will expect them to be good quality, and it's easier to remember maps when there are less of them. We've tried to keep variety in the 50 or so economic maps that are included.

I agree that we should promote ways to download maps. We can promote KaM Repos through our website (good suggestion Tiank) and Facebook page. Any ideas for other things we can do?

[pawel95]

What about one more button ? xD
Near the infobox like tiank said, under the nickname field maybe? Would look good to have a button that says "visit KaMrepos"(still the name is confusing for me xd) and by clicking it, just the standard browser will open the link in the background.

[Tiank]

Would look good to have a button that says "visit KaMrepos"(still the name is confusing for me xd) and by clicking it, just the standard browser will open the link in the background.

That's what I meant, to promote it via inxobox in game, not via website . But still, it's a good idea. Although I was thinking* about button inside that infobox, but near nickname should look better. Maybe just "Map Database" as name? Or "Visit Map Database", so player knows it would redirect him.

Also, is it possible to make html links to that "kamts.eu" and "donations" in infobox? With that, probably more people would visit the site and eventually join TS, since it's easier (and probably more effective) to click on a name, than to type it in browser.

Offtop, have you ever noticed, that the word "thinking" has words Thin King in it?

[sado1]

@thunder: we almost didn't think about Teamspeak when measuring popularity - TS people have never had problems with downloading custom maps, so the list doesn't mean that much to them. I don't like the fact that we had to delete so many of your maps, however we are trying to stay professional and not judge people based on how much we like them or not. That's why we deleted your maps, and that's why we didn't delete all of PAKER's maps (which are not my favourite). We're trying to stay objective. Look at To. He could easily say "my maps look good enough and are very playable, I am not gonna delete any of them" and no one would even notice. But he knew he had many maps, so he volunteered to delete like half of his maps, up to a point that made people ask us why are we deleting them.

As for having a place where everyone can download the maps: Anti tried it with his Map Repos, but as you said, it would have to become somewhat official to have any effect. Maybe incorporating it into the kamremake.com, and later - into the Remake itself as some sort of maps downloading interface - would be a solution? At the moment we want to see how will randoms react on so many deleted maps, and if they will send some old maps to each other then play them. I asked Lewin to make a filter on http://kam.hodgman.id.au/mapslist.php?rev=r6478 which would let us compare downloaded maps only, so in next version we'd know which maps should be added back.

[pawel95]

Can't wait when the kamremake mail will get spamed by random players with "What have you done with my favorite map?????"

[Remake 2012]

New Dream and Other War did not fullfill our criteria.

What are the criteria? Origin maps from specific authors?
aha.....


Why not have a list of maps that are to be removed (ok, it is) but, with the reason why they are removed? Why is there no possibility of improving them?

[dicsoupcan]

New Dream and Other War did not fullfill our criteria.

What are the criteria? Origin maps from specific authors?
aha.....


Why not have a list of maps that are to be removed (ok, it is) but, with the reason why they are removed? Why is there no possibility of improving them?

Q: What are the criteria for adding a map/letting a map stay in the Remake?
A: These are the criteria. Note: not all of them need to be fulfilled at once, generally if a map fulfills all but one, it is fine.
1. The popularity of the map. While obviously there is no way to judge it for the new maps, it it very important for the old maps. If a map is already in the Remake, and it's popular enough in 5503, it's probably going to be included again. If people like a map, we should not delete it. If a map was around 400 games/60th place or above that, it was considered popular. The higher was the map on the list, the more we could forgive it (for example, worse looks etc.)
2. The looks of the map. The Remake needs a certain quality standard, and I cannot imagine a better person than The Dark Lord for judging the looks of those maps.
3. The gameplay. This one is hard for new maps too, unless we played that certain map and/or had feedback from people that played it. We made the decision to not eliminate campy maps only because they're campy, cause many people love them. However, some of the most extreme examples were deleted (Lake Wololo...)
4. The balance - both teams' chances need to be equal.
5. We allowed most of the dynamically scripted maps, even if some of them looked a bit worse.

[sado1]

Why not have a list of maps that are to be removed (ok, it is) but, with the reason why they are removed? Why is there no possibility of improving them?

Please count the maps that we deleted. Do you really want us to write a detailed opinion on ALL of them?! I understand that you are angry at us deleting many of your maps, but please try to understand. We have real lifes (at least I pretend I have one ) and we will not sit and write detailed descriptions of tens of maps.

What are the criteria? Origin maps from specific authors?

You had many maps in the Remake and as with all the others who had many maps too (To, thunder), we deleted many of them. You can't say that we are favouring some authors. If I would follow what maps I like and what I don't, I would probably keep all thunder's and To's maps.