Town Hall / Siege Workshop

[Guest]

Hi guys!


I've asked it on http://www.kamremake.com too, but I wanna ask you about it here:

Did you like Town Hall and Siege Workshop in the original KaM TPR? Would you like putting them into this remake?

Lewin said, it would mess up the multiplayer mode, but what if they would be blocked in multiplayer, and only could be used in singleplayer mode?
What do you think? It's gonna make campaign missions easier...

(Sorry for bad English, I'm Hungarian)

[The Dark Lord]

Before I give you my opinion, I have a question for you: is easier better?

[Bo_]

Lord is right, you can't call the campaign very difficult. So easier? And townhall is ok for me, but not siege workshup, that's just shit. And why yes for town hall? I think it's as 'powerful' as the market, so it won't realy change the game balance. To give you an idea: In townhall 1 militia = 2 chests. You can also make 1 recruit, trade 1 chest for 1 trunk, wich gives you also 1 militia for 2 chests. (Even if townhall is a bit quicker) And also, you can just store 5 chests in the townhall so actualy it is still slow.

[Guest]

The Dark Lord, sometimes yes.
I've done TSK and TPR before I started playing again (about 1 year ago, with this Remake). And nearly never used these (because I have always prefered Leather soldiers), but here are these Single Player Maps. They sometimes attack so fast, with large armies, and everyone knows how to make Gold, so it would make these easier. I know you can do it without Town Hall / Siege Workshop, because you are playing it since it was developed. And I understood it would mess up the multiplayer, but what about singleplayer? They are a part of KaM TPR. Anyway, I want to read your opinion. Could you write please?

[Plaguesworn]

I despise both the town hall and the siege workshop, I hope to never see them again in K&M.

[The Dark Lord]

Personally I love difficult games. I hate it when I win something in just one try, it is so much more satisfying when you struggle for hours and eventually manage to win.
As for KaM Remake: I'm not sure what would be best. I do agree with Lewin that the town hall and weapon workshop should not be added to multiplayer. Especially those ballistas are overpowered; they're like moving watchtowers with infinite ammunition (one shot, one kill). Surely with some rebalancing this could be improved but I think it should stay as it is, at least for now.
Concerning singleplayer... yes, maybe it should be added. Together with a script command that would allow or disallow use and/or creation of siege equipment, people who make maps/missions can decide whether they want to allow the player to use siege equipment. I for one made a mission in my campaign The New Lands that was based on siege equipment (your actual goal was to destroy all siege workshops on the map). I guess it is unplayable in Remake. But mind you, the reason for adding siege equipment and the town hall for me would be that it can make certain missions more interesting and gives you more possibillities to create interesting missions (so in that aspect I'm being very selfish here ), not because it would make the game easier. That's actually a con.

[thunder]

Hi!

"Easier?"-Maybe, but the opponents has too, so the situation is equal.
In normal game an average map:

-3-4 (rarely more) gold mines are buildable.
-2 schools are enough(or +1)
-needly minimum 3 or 4 smelter
(Ok,i havent counted it, but i dont remember where buildable only 1 gold mine...)


Some question:
-How much goldore is mineable in the PT?
-How much gold can creatable in the PT?-(think on the coal-need more buildings-more citizes....)
-How much gold is needly to the school for the citizens?
-How much gold can you store for the recruits?
-How much gold In average powah game?


calculating in the normal game:
100serf+20labourer+4stmsns+6wdcs+12carpenter+20miners+5smelters+5blcsms+8frms+4ranchers+3butchers+5bakers+1fisher+10recruits to the towers=more than 203gold (and more....130serfs are normal)
and need much recruits-PROs can create more than 100 any kind of soldiers- 100gold.
more than 300Gold in the peace time. NEARLY, in my mind....
(with fluenly smelters and mines working)

calculating with TH game:
only gold production(i had tried at once, but i didnt see the PT, so i will try out it and i will coun it)
3-4 buildable mines-->not more 300 gold
i dont know but maybe 80serfs+20 labourers+15miners+5smelter+4farmers+4bakers+3stonem+3woodc+6carp+10recruits(to the towers) will be enough and have lot time to build more buildings...=150gold
will have 150gold what could use to in townhall(s).
150 'weakly' units with pitchfork or 30 naturely musclemachine(barbarians).



Basicly TH is unbuildable. If The mapmakers want then need to turn on this function with buildable/or unbuildable option.
The basic set up UNBUILDABLE.



The market was good choise to put in the remake-maybe the prices will be better balance. Maybe once TH will be in Remake if will be balanced the cost and strengths.
For example: How much gold is the milita if created from the market??? Gold-Axe changing+need one recruits.----->(1)Little expensive Townhall ....
And the strengths very usually modified...(towers, archers, knights...)--->(2)weaker units from townhall....
Units from townhall doesnt have protects....
An other idea: (3)Could built townhall after that the players has ALL kind of buildings or something strong criterion.
or the player have all weapon creator buildings...

And i think Lord has right.

I like only barbarians from TH because they come and win. not counting how many is the opponent:)

lw.: i know, this numbers aren't very precise. i just think on it what is the max. and these wasnt the golden way.

[Jeronimo]

Today... I just thought in a way to reinsert TOWN HALL back to the game.

My idea is simple: Remove some units, and reacomodate gold chests prices from the available.

*Remove Militia/Barbarian/Warrior
*New Costs: Rebel 2, Rogue 3, Vagabond 5.
---------------------------------------------------

Removal of Militia: From the unarmored units, this is the best (cause has storm attack for free). Already belongs to Barracks...
We prefer to keep the usual tradition of massing them through many spare axes that remain stored.

Removal of Barbarian/Warrior: How to clasify these guys? Still lots of Infantry doesn't apport anything really substancial to the gameplay. Also they would require much more than 5 gold chests (max limit)... I would estimate the cost in 8.

Rebel (2): The first guy we see. Is someone complaining about Cavalry with 5 hp? Make a few rebels to backup Lancers.
I also see a new meatshield in his purpose... Why sending Lancers or Militias to towers, if Rebels could be the new fasion?

Rogue (3): Ranged units always better, so +1 cost... Why sacrifying Rebels to empty towers if we can destroy them with slingers? Do you dare to combine Xbows + Rogues? Sounds quite funny... It's also the best "anti-labourer rush" unit IMO.

Vagabond (5): The big surprise. Someone suggested moving Vagabond to Barracks... Well my friends, that won't work because "Militia on horse" is absolute waste of 4 corns. Since doesn't have shield, will only have 4 hp (and unarmored).
However imagine the economic relations IF he could be trained at 5 gold chests: 1 chest (recruit), 1 chest (axe), 3 chests (donkey) -> because I see a "donkey" in his picture, not really a "horse".
The usage of Vagabond is extremely anti-Ranged, they will do annoying hit & run (control # for Vagabond), while you focus your resources in stronger Infantry, and more own Ranged.

Conclusions: This building could work as a support for Barracks, having 2-3 Townhalls and big chest production (possibly trading extra gold ore from markets), you can maintain unarmor+leather+iron army production.

Knights & Merchants Remake would have 12 trainable units (infantry x3, ranged x3, polearm x3, cavalry x3).
Unarmored: Militia, Rogue, Rebel, Vagabond
Leather: Axeman, Archer, Lancer, Scout
Iron: Swordman, Xbow, Pikeman, Knight

This Town-Hall adds even more variation in armies for support/tactical gameplay (because Militia would be core, but is only trainable at Barracks). My suggested costs don't make it "abusable"... I hope you liked the analysis.

[Bence791]

Removal of Barbarian/Warrior: How to clasify these guys? Still lots of Infantry doesn't apport anything really substancial to the gameplay. Also they would require much more than 5 gold chests (max limit)... I would estimate the cost in 8.

Rebel (2): The first guy we see. Is someone complaining about Cavalry with 5 hp? Make a few rebels to backup Lancers.
I also see a new meatshield in his purpose... Why sending Lancers or Militias to towers, if Rebels could be the new fasion?

Rogue (3): Ranged units always better, so +1 cost... Why sacrifying Rebels to empty towers if we can destroy them with slingers? Do you dare to combine Xbows + Rogues? Sounds quite funny... It's also the best "anti-labourer rush" unit IMO.

Vagabond (5): The big surprise. Someone suggested moving Vagabond to Barracks... Well my friends, that won't work because "Militia on horse" is absolute waste of 4 corns. Since doesn't have shield, will only have 4 hp (and unarmored).
However imagine the economic relations IF he could be trained at 5 gold chests: 1 chest (recruit), 1 chest (axe), 3 chests (donkey) -> because I see a "donkey" in his picture, not really a "horse".
The usage of Vagabond is extremely anti-Ranged, they will do annoying hit & run (control # for Vagabond), while you focus your resources in stronger Infantry, and more own Ranged.

I liked Town Hall as it was. I think you don't see the substance. Warriors and Barbarians are already too expensive to spam, and only after PT. Who would train these if he can train 5 xbowmen or 5 lancer/axemen instead? They have been weaken with this patch, because they don't have a shield. I made some tests with them, against Axemen, Scouts, Knights and Swordsmen. (11v11)

Results against axemen:
8 Barbarians alive/ 10 Warriors alive

Results against swordsmen:
All Barbarians have been slaughtered, 7 swordsmen alive / 5 Warriors alive

Results against scouts:
10 Barbarians alive / 7 Warriors alive

Results against knights:
10 knights left / 4 knights left

And I tried that storm attack would help something.. Very-very strange... Warriors became way weaker, and storm attack made Barbarians so much stronger. LOL

Results against axemen:
9 Barbarians alive / 7 Warriors alive

Results against swordsmen:
6 Barbarians alive / 6 swordsmen left X_X

Results against scouts:
9 Barbarians alive / 10 Warriors alive

Results against knights:

I've been totally... I can't find words.. LOL

8 knights left / 10 knights left X_X


So I don't think that they should be removed, and their price is good as it is. They are the elite of mercenaries. But still have counter units. And do anyone think they worth spamming? They can be disarmed by some axemen and (x)bowmen. What would you choose? To equip 5 soldiers at Barracks, or to train Warriors/Barbarians?


Now about the others:

Rebels: I think they are stronger against Cavalry than Lancers. But they have lower armor, and totally useless against anything else, so I think price is okay.
Militia: I agree with Jero, that Militia should be trained at Barracks. 2 timber isn't that too much cost... Everyone can grow a tree and make 2 timber of that, right?
Rogue: I would never train Rogues, unless I don't have anything else for archer support. Very weak, mainly aimless, armorless. Not worth that 2 gold chests imo.
Vagabond: Cavalry unit, but only good for flanking. It would cost too much to spam them to fight infantry, or to hold cavalry out of your town. I agree with 3 chests.

I think Town Hall is as good as it is. You only can train troops after PT, so it wouldn't give anyone advantages, but still the part of KaM.

[Da Revolution]

I am not against the town hall, but building it is completely useless since it does cost you a lot of gold. I prefer having axefighters instead of those units. Also gold is way too valuable at most maps to spend on things like that.

[The Dark Lord]

That would actually mean the Town Hall could be added.

[Bo_]

Townhall is also completely useless for me...
Also it's not fair compared to the market, where 1 horse costs 5 gold, 1 axe 2 gold. So in the townhall you could have those items cheaper.

[pawel95]

I like Townhall very much, BUT like a lot of people said, we need a fixed version of the townhall.
There was an other idea,too, to implement the vagabond to the barraks and s. other things.
The siege shop i like very much,too, but here is the same thing like in the townhall.
The catapults must be fixed or be better balanced.

For me, for this time is not neccesary, because Lewin will write his exam and there are "bigger" things for me(to the first ), like a good A.I which you can maybe in a few months fight against (human vs. computer) and not like in the original game, that the A.I doesnt know what to do, because you are loading a saved game in campaign


"Also it's not fair compared to the market, where 1 horse costs 5 gold, 1 axe 2 gold. So in the townhall you could have those items cheaper."
Yeah, like I said, the townhall/siegeshop must be fixed.


pawel95

[sado1]

Moving Vagabond to the Barracks is easy, it requires horse+axe+recruit. But do any of you have an idea for rogue and rebels? Maybe need 1 corn(or 1 sausage, or what else you'd propose?)+1 recruit for rebel, and something like that also for rogue? (1 wine+1recruit?) We can't produce sling or pitchfork, so we could replace them with something that also needs to be produced, but I don't know what else... also there'd be the issue of bringing too much corn/wine to the barracks but I guess a simple limit (of 5? maybe set it at resource tab?) might do the job...

[Da Revolution]

For a rebel you'll need an animal breeder... only vagabond would be useful to move I think.