KaM Remake gameplay balance

[EDMatt]

Truth has to be told, I agree with Bo and Jeronimo, and as Bo said there are countless others that just don't want to express their thoughts in this thread, in-fact you will find that the majority of the better players support Bo's theory just saying .

[Da Revolution]

I think its more like 50/50.

[pepa999]

Hi, I have whole new idea of fighting system in kam remake. In real game, there is nearly not change from old system to this new system, but in terms of computing balance
of units, this system will be very clear and very simple. I read some posts about math in the balance of units and many people was disgust by it,
and i think that rightly. Because in my opinion, current system is unnecessarily complicated and when we trying to find balance between units, it
is too complicated to computing real relative strength between units. Nevertheless, i think a lot of people will reject this idea even at this point
of this text, and i thing again that rightly, because in spite of all, kam fighting system conceals unique beauty and i also like that nice things
on this system. I would like to name this nice things to calm people(and of course myself), that they will not lose this nice things by this
new system, but only lose bad things. So, there is main three things, that is nice on kam fighting system:

1) Regeneration
- It is very heartwarming, that when you win the battle, you take all your units to the next battle fully regenerated

2) A little random fights
- it is exciting, that you dont know how will end a specific fight, only approximately, and it is possibble even to beat knight with militia

3) Numerical superiority winners
- next very nice thing, that when you for example stray into the pack of militia even with the best unit in the game, knight, militia will kill him with
unbelievable speed.

Ok, this three points are base of my new fighting system, but this system, as you can expect, exclude bad things from old system. There is main
two that things:

1) Regeneration affect balance between units
- It is very annoying to take into acount regeneration of units when making balance changes. It ends with many scary math formula, that nobody
dont know what it exactly means in game balance in real game situations, and even minor change of for example life points will make uncontrollable
diference between strength of units.

2) Unit can do maximum damage of 1 life point
- This is another unnatural thing, that cause many problems when you balancing units.

So, now, i will explain, how i solved individual parts of fighting system:

1) Regeneration
- Regeneration will only serve to achieve goal, that when you win one battle, you go with your remaining units fully regenerated to another battle.
And in fight, regeneration will help meaningless. Exactly, Unit is fully healed in 5 mins. So, every seconds, 1/300 of Max Life Points is recovered.

2) Life and Damage
- Because in normal Kam, Unit for example with attack of 55 will theoretically do damage of 0.55 x ONE LIFE, so in my new fighting system, life
is multiplied by 100 and Unit with 55 damage will do damage of 55 Life and balance between units remains theoretically unchanged from old system
to new system. And because we want a little random fights, unit with damage of 55 will do random damage from 0 to 110, that will be 55 in average.

3) Armor and Damage from different sides
- It remains totally unchanged. For example Unit with attack of 55, that attack other unit with 2 armor from back side, will do damage
of 0 - 110x5/2 , so 0 - 275

In conclusion, there is a list of Unit Stats in my new fighting system:

Militia
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 1

Axefighter
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 2

Swordsman
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 110
Armor: 3

Scout
Life: 400
Regeneration: 1.33(Exactly 4/3) Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 2

Knight
Life: 400
Regeneration: 1.33(Exactly 4/3) Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 110
Armor: 3

Lancer
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 50
Attack vs Horses: 0 - 160
Armor: 2

Pikeman
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Attack vs Horses: 0 - 230

I think, this simple fighting system would be good base to making kam balanced. Lets see, how easy is to computing result of fight
for example 1vs1 Knight vs Lancer. This number (300*80*2)/(400*55*3) indicates, how much life will lancer destroy from Knight when
he die. it is 0.727, so knight will have only 0.273 of his maximum life(so 0.273 x 400 = 109 Life) after lancer die. Or we can calculate, how many hits need
lancer to kill knight, when fighting from diagonal front side. This number indicates it (400*3)/(80*2) = 7.5.
And from Back Side, it is (400*3)/(80*5) = 3. And similar easy calculations are main symbol of this fighting system.

[The Dark Lord]

2) A little random fights
- it is exciting, that you dont know how will end a specific fight, only approximately, and it is possibble even to beat knight with militia

I completely disagree. 'A little random fights' would be nice, but if a knight loses to a militia it is not 'a little' random. It's just absurd, even the thought of it makes me angry.... Losing an expensive, well equiped knight because of an inferior millitia.

1) Regeneration affect balance between units
- It is very annoying to take into acount regeneration of units when making balance changes. It ends with many scary math formula, that nobody
dont know what it exactly means in game balance in real game situations, and even minor change of for example life points will make uncontrollable
diference between strength of units.

Please define 'many scary math formula', because I'm pretty sure a lot of people would understand those formulas if they'd look at them.

1) Regeneration
- Regeneration will only serve to achieve goal, that when you win one battle, you go with your remaining units fully regenerated to another battle.
And in fight, regeneration will help meaningless. Exactly, Unit is fully healed in 5 mins. So, every seconds, 1/300 of Max Life Points is recovered.

How does regeneration work in Remake? I don't know so I can't compare your idea with it.

2) Life and Damage
- Because in normal Kam, Unit for example with attack of 55 will theoretically do damage of 0.55 x ONE LIFE, so in my new fighting system, life
is multiplied by 100 and Unit with 55 damage will do damage of 55 Life and balance between units remains theoretically unchanged from old system
to new system. And because we want a little random fights, unit with damage of 55 will do random damage from 0 to 110, that will be 55 in average.

I had the same idea but I was told it's not possible. Or well I guess it is, but it would mean everything has to be changed and I don't think that's going to happen.

[EDMatt]

Hi, I have whole new idea of fighting system in kam remake. In real game, there is nearly not change from old system to this new system, but in terms of computing balance
of units, this system will be very clear and very simple. I read some posts about math in the balance of units and many people was disgust by it,
and i think that rightly. Because in my opinion, current system is unnecessarily complicated and when we trying to find balance between units, it
is too complicated to computing real relative strength between units. Nevertheless, i think a lot of people will reject this idea even at this point
of this text, and i thing again that rightly, because in spite of all, kam fighting system conceals unique beauty and i also like that nice things
on this system. I would like to name this nice things to calm people(and of course myself), that they will not lose this nice things by this
new system, but only lose bad things. So, there is main three things, that is nice on kam fighting system:

1) Regeneration
- It is very heartwarming, that when you win the battle, you take all your units to the next battle fully regenerated

2) A little random fights
- it is exciting, that you dont know how will end a specific fight, only approximately, and it is possibble even to beat knight with militia

3) Numerical superiority winners
- next very nice thing, that when you for example stray into the pack of militia even with the best unit in the game, knight, militia will kill him with
unbelievable speed.

Ok, this three points are base of my new fighting system, but this system, as you can expect, exclude bad things from old system. There is main
two that things:

1) Regeneration affect balance between units
- It is very annoying to take into acount regeneration of units when making balance changes. It ends with many scary math formula, that nobody
dont know what it exactly means in game balance in real game situations, and even minor change of for example life points will make uncontrollable
diference between strength of units.

2) Unit can do maximum damage of 1 life point
- This is another unnatural thing, that cause many problems when you balancing units.

So, now, i will explain, how i solved individual parts of fighting system:

1) Regeneration
- Regeneration will only serve to achieve goal, that when you win one battle, you go with your remaining units fully regenerated to another battle.
And in fight, regeneration will help meaningless. Exactly, Unit is fully healed in 5 mins. So, every seconds, 1/300 of Max Life Points is recovered.

2) Life and Damage
- Because in normal Kam, Unit for example with attack of 55 will theoretically do damage of 0.55 x ONE LIFE, so in my new fighting system, life
is multiplied by 100 and Unit with 55 damage will do damage of 55 Life and balance between units remains theoretically unchanged from old system
to new system. And because we want a little random fights, unit with damage of 55 will do random damage from 0 to 110, that will be 55 in average.

3) Armor and Damage from different sides
- It remains totally unchanged. For example Unit with attack of 55, that attack other unit with 2 armor from back side, will do damage
of 0 - 110x5/2 , so 0 - 275

In conclusion, there is a list of Unit Stats in my new fighting system:

Militia
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 1

Axefighter
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 2

Swordsman
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 110
Armor: 3

Scout
Life: 400
Regeneration: 1.33(Exactly 4/3) Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 2

Knight
Life: 400
Regeneration: 1.33(Exactly 4/3) Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 110
Armor: 3

Lancer
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 50
Attack vs Horses: 0 - 160
Armor: 2

Pikeman
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Attack vs Horses: 0 - 230

I think, this simple fighting system would be good base to making kam balanced. Lets see, how easy is to computing result of fight
for example 1vs1 Knight vs Lancer. This number (300*80*2)/(400*55*3) indicates, how much life will lancer destroy from Knight when
he die. it is 0.727, so knight will have only 0.273 of his maximum life(so 0.273 x 400 = 109 Life) after lancer die. Or we can calculate, how many hits need
lancer to kill knight, when fighting from diagonal front side. This number indicates it (400*3)/(80*2) = 7.5.
And from Back Side, it is (400*3)/(80*5) = 3. And similar easy calculations are main symbol of this fighting system.

WTF did i just read, davai dasvidaniya
seriously.. did you ever play online?
you must realize how time consuming it is to train knights.

MODBREAK: Nobody cares.

[The Dark Lord]

I don't see archers and crossbowmen in your system by the way.

[Da Revolution]

I don't see archers and crossbowmen in your system by the way.

Those aren't important in KaM you know.

[Bo_]

Yes it's all about militia, they are the key to win the game.

[Jeronimo]

You guys know what is funny about all this?

That at the end... when between everyone's brains find another path around to balance the game... the result will be the same as it was with the heroic patch. More Axemen, less Spearmen (mostly for tactical situations), useful Scouts/Swordmen, etc...

Archers are fine, Xbowmen are fine, regeneration is fine, durability was fine (with patch).

Was the +1hp so wrong? Compare it with the final result you will get out of these multiple-thread conversations...
Jeronimo will be waiting you in future...

[Da Revolution]

I am not convinced Jero, but that was clear already I think. We'll see what happens with the testing that will be done after the next release. Maybe you are right or maybe there is a better solution. Patience.

[-George Stain-]

You guys know what is funny about all this?

That at the end... when between everyone's brains find another path around to balance the game... the result will be the same as it was with the heroic patch. More Axemen, less Spearmen (mostly for tactical situations), useful Scouts/Swordmen, etc...

Archers are fine, Xbowmen are fine, regeneration is fine, durability was fine (with patch).

Was the +1hp so wrong? Compare it with the final result you will get out of these multiple-thread conversations...
Jeronimo will be waiting you in future...

you are very wrong Jeronimo.. We have very simple patch where is everything useful equally.. In your patch is axeman very OP, believe me.. I will post it very soon..

[pepa999]

I completely disagree. 'A little random fights' would be nice, but if a knight loses to a militia it is not 'a little' random. It's just absurd, even the thought of it makes me angry.... Losing an expensive, well equiped knight because of an inferior millitia.

i was speaking about normal knight, that you play every day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9oedOo4QKs

I don't see archers and crossbowmen in your system by the way.

That list was only for imagine how it would look like, not to define exactly my fighting system.

[Bo_]

Let's just ignore and not waste time.

[The Dark Lord]

I completely disagree. 'A little random fights' would be nice, but if a knight loses to a militia it is not 'a little' random. It's just absurd, even the thought of it makes me angry.... Losing an expensive, well equiped knight because of an inferior millitia.

i was speaking about normal knight, that you play every day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9oedOo4QKs

I don't see archers and crossbowmen in your system by the way.

That list was only for imagine how it would look like, not to define exactly my fighting system.

So was I.

[pepa999]

WTF did i just read, davai dasvidaniya
seriously.. did you ever play online?
you must realize how time consuming it is to train knights.

I will no longer play this game if people actually listen to this crap.

You dont have enough intelligence to understand about what i was spoken, but to play online it is sufficient.