Speeding up the early game

[FeyBart]

(...)
A lot. You will lose precious time, which other players spend on buildings that actually produce something and thus bring them forward.
(...)

And what if you're right? What if it destroys the game beyond recognition? Do you think they'll keep it in? I'm getting the feeling that you're just afraid people will start liking it, and this is going to be kept. But you feel it changes too much, and you fear that this will screw up the nostalgia for you, or something.

(...)
That's your interpretation, it wasn't meant that way.
Also, an example is not necessarily an argument, let alone a usable argument.

I know it wasn't meant that way. Like I said, I know it's a joke. But stating your opinion about something and saying how it's "obvious", meh...

Besides, why have you ignored every other argument I've talked about? Do you have nothing to say about that?

(...)
Okay, I'll try to explain again, then. In the classic tech-tree, mapmakers had the choice of letting players skip the inn by having the woodcutter, quarry, etc. be unlocked at the start. Now, that choice is no longer given to mapmakers: The inn can never be forced unto the initial setup of the village. I understand the the new tech-tree is slightly different than having pre-unlocked buildings in that the school must first be built, but I find that to be a small gain for such a big change. For the most part, this new feature could already be accomplished before.

So, to answer your question: Map makers now no longer have the choice of making players build an early inn.

You can let the players unlock the buildings at specific times or events with scripting, I think.

We agree in general that is good to slightly speed up the initial game's phase.
I would to hear opinions from complainers respect this:

*Krom's way: Storehouse enables Inn+School / School enables Quarry+Woodcutter.
It's the fastest proposal, but to compare I'll remember mine below which speed is "average" in comparison.

*Jeronimo's way: Storehouse enables School / School enables Inn+Quarry.
This chain only allows Quarry, but not fast Woodcutter (anyway you need to build at least 2 quarries, even if you have woodcutters unlocked).
My proposal maybe is more attractive for mapmakers who still can speed their maps enabling woodcutters/farms.

Do we prefer option K or J?
For me any is fine, just want to skip Inn in every map.

Like Ben said, isn't it a little quick to think about that immediately? There are still quite some people opposed.

[The Dark Lord]

(...)
A lot. You will lose precious time, which other players spend on buildings that actually produce something and thus bring them forward.
(...)

And what if you're right? What if it destroys the game beyond recognition? Do you think they'll keep it in? I'm getting the feeling that you're just afraid people will start liking it, and this is going to be kept. But you feel it changes too much, and you fear that this will screw up the nostalgia for you, or something.

If it destroys the game I'm confident that Krom and Lewin will switch back to the original way. And yes, maybe it's just that I don't like it. But guess what? Even balance discussions are about personal taste.

Besides, why have you ignored every other argument I've talked about? Do you have nothing to say about that?

Because:
1. I already answered it in a previous post or
2. my answer wouldn't really be related to the main topic anymore and we'd go off-topic. Like this actually.

[FeyBart]

If it destroys the game I'm confident that Krom and Lewin will switch back to the original way. And yes, maybe it's just that I don't like it. But guess what? Even balance discussions are about personal taste.
(...)

Then why don't you agree we should just try? These RC's are perfect for experimentation.

[Ben]

Your're right Feybart! It is very likely that many people will like it. The problem for me is that we can almost do this already with scripting, whereas once this is implemented, we won't have a choice! (inn/skip inn).

[Jeronimo]

Your're right Feybart! It is very likely that many people will like it. The problem for me is that we can almost do this already with scripting, whereas once this is implemented, we won't have a choice! (inn/skip inn).

I understand your points of view guys, I'm not really a selfish person as Feybart believes.

As my big momma would say... with the new tech tree, it's will not be a matter for mapmakers, but for Hosts of lobby.
Everything has a simple solution somewhere, and in this case is playing with 55 or 60 minutes PT.

Consider 55 PT as the alternative of basebuilding, where you currently "play 60 PT and build Inn unnecessary early" for unlocking quarry, etc.

[Ben]

Your're right Feybart! It is very likely that many people will like it. The problem for me is that we can almost do this already with scripting, whereas once this is implemented, we won't have a choice! (inn/skip inn).Consider 55 PT as the alternative of basebuilding, where you currently "play 60 PT and build Inn unnecessary early" for unlocking quarry, etc.

Interesting. I had not thought of just editing the PT....hmmmmmmm. Give me some time to think on that

[Jeronimo]

You won't regret it. I can assure you and promise future satisfactions!

[Lewin]

It's clear that some people don't like the idea of this change. We'll test it in the RC and see how it goes, we can always revert it or come up with an alternative if it's very unpopular.

[FeyBart]

(...)
I understand your points of view guys, I'm not really a selfish person as Feybart believes.
(...)

No, I don't think that at all. I actually think you're a nice person. This one comment probably came out the wrong way, but it just seemed a little strange, that's all. No hard feelings.

[H.A.H.]

What about

the Inn+Sawmill unlocks all food production, that is: the mill/vineyards/butcher/fishermanhut.

An interesting no-food mode is then possible by disallowing hunger/building the inn.

[Ben]

What about

the Inn+Sawmill unlocks all food production, that is: the mill/vineyards/butcher/fishermanhut.

An interesting no-food mode is then possible by disallowing hunger/building the inn.

Why would need a butcher without a swinefarm?

No, this proposal is totally unnecessary. Besides, the sawmill already unlocks most food production, and you can't build it without the inn....

[FeyBart]

I agree with Ben. It might be nice to have the later pieces of the different food chains unlocked before, to make city planning easier, but I like this way better as a guide for the just beginning players.

[H.A.H.]

@Ben, the whole unlocking of buildings is quite wrong since the introduction of the Market: when you've built the market, any building should be unlocked, because it is possible to get the resources through trade.

Besides, the whole order of unlocking buildings can have a very big impact on gameplay in general: what if all weapon-type buildings are unlocked whenever the player has built every food-type building (fish optional). This way, rushing without a somewhat "stable" economy is impossible.

Perhaps the order of unlocking can be set by different game modes, that should provide enough flexibility in game speed/play style. (E.g. pro-games: unlock everything from the start, beginner-games: linear building constraints, i.e. after sawmill only farm is unlocked, each building unlocks max. 2 other buildings)

[Ben]

@Ben, the whole unlocking of buildings is quite wrong since the introduction of the Market: when you've built the market, any building should be unlocked, because it is possible to get the resources through trade.

And I suppose that I could build a barrack before I make any weapon production, but what would be the point in that?
My point is that your suggestions are unnecessary. As far as I remember, KaM Remake's plan and goal is to not implement too many new things to the game. The marketplace was quite a large enough change. With it, I don't think there really is much room left for additions to the game.

Now, obviously the Remake will continue to make gameplay better, augment balance, and overall increase the quality of the game, but that's all whole different thing than adding "all new" things to the game.

[H.A.H.]

The reason you can build a baracks before weapon production is 'historical': in the original campaign, often weapons are stored in the storehouse. You would need to build a baracks as quickly as possible to counter any attacks from the AI. But in multiplayer sessions, this is mostly not the case.

If at the one hand is to make the quality of the game better, and that includes a better learning curve for new players, then build order unlocking can be a great tool to improve quality. Because it is a change from the original does not make it bad at all. In some sense, the original game also locked some buildings during single player campaign: the first time you play, you also cannot create iron mines or stables.

As far as your argument goes that you want to increase the quality of the game, then I suppose that some old features may need some rethinking. Multiplayer is a "whole different game" than single player campaign. And this needs adaptation. My only point is: build unlocking has a major effect in what players are able to do and how fast they are able to do it: and that may change balancing (but this is unclear, if nobody discusses the possibilities).