Pawel's Campaign Feedback

[Gustavo Antunes]

just to add, some maps like the "forbidden land" have the same problem, you can sneak someone and kill all the left and center base by hunger, just in this map where i managed to save the armory workshop and the allies started training archers, scouts, axemen and lancers.

[cmowla]

...killing all the serfs and killing the enemy soldiers by hunger.

Yeah, this is how I have made the campaigns and other maps easy to win for myself over the years (I have been playing almost since the original game was released...off and on...sometimes I skipped playing for several years at a time). If you become a member of this forum, you can download and view my replay of mission 18 from this post to see how it's done! , especially that there's a bug (in the remake version r5503, the current version) in mission 18 (addressed here). Besides my clever strategy to bypass the bug, the replay shows how I typically have starved the enemy soldiers. I find that doing this in mission 18 is much easier than mission 16, and mission 16 is easier than mission 15.

To believe it or not, you can also do something similar to this with mission 14...you just take your 6 scout, send 3 to the northeast village and 3 to the southeast village AT THE VERY BEGINNING of the game. Kill the laborers before they build a school house. You have to sacrifice your scout in order to accomplish this, but you will easily win the mission after as you will disable all threats (even your formally worthless ally will have fun destroying the enemy buildings!).

In addition, I just did the starving technique for mission 20 (today, as a matter of fact), which you can find a replay in this post. It's very difficult to do this in mission 20 compared to other missions because the AI is a little smarter, but with a slight twist, you in effect do the same thing.

now the entire campaign is not unlocked for me, but I am sure that in the mission 18 it is possible to do the same.

You can skip missions easily if you have the remake (if I recall correctly, there was a way to easily skip missions in the original game too). I assume you have the remake (that's how you can see replays). Just go to the campaigns folder, copy TSK18 and paste it into the maps folder. Then you can play that level without having to play any preceding levels (play it from the single map section in the remake menu).

[pawel95]

Well I am not sure. In original Tsk (in tpr) in some certain missions, when you were far away from the soldiers, you could also kill some buildings like the inn and win the whole mission Lewin told me some days ago that in the Remake, it´s not possible to set the "agressivness of the ai" somehow(Because noone knows how that worked in tpr/tsk also).

In my opinion, such a function should be really added sooner or later on. I am just playing a mission in vas new campaign section, and there I get attacked, when I only shoot at some serfs. However that might be programmed by dynamic scripts and not by static. Dicsoupcann told me yesterday, that defence positions in the Remake only work for buildings not for citizens: When you make a huge defence radius and a house is under attack, the army will attack you. When serfs will be under attack, they won´t attack you (but somehow I remember that also that was different somehow in tsk).

Nevermind about your "sneak throw", I wanna add one more function, that isn´t implemented in the remake yet, but could/should be implemented (it´s working in tpr/tsk):

When you are standing/going a few tiles next to a group of standing soldiers, they will attack you! That makes sense and it is realistic, I mean troops will attack you in real life, when you go 2 tiles next to them in their base and not only when you say "Goodmorning sir" and touch them
WIth this addition, this "easy cheating" could be at least a bit avoided.


Pawel95

[Lewin]

Nevermind about your "sneak throw", I wanna add one more function, that isn´t implemented in the remake yet, but could/should be implemented (it´s working in tpr/tsk):

When you are standing/going a few tiles next to a group of standing soldiers, they will attack you! That makes sense and it is realistic, I mean troops will attack you in real life, when you go 2 tiles next to them in their base and not only when you say "Goodmorning sir" and touch them
WIth this addition, this "easy cheating" could be at least a bit avoided.

You're right, we need to implement that to make the AI work properly. Until then it will almost always be possible to sneak into the enemy's base. I kind of forgot about that feature of TSK/TPR

Does anyone remember how big the range is? We can make this an option you set for the AI, but by default it should be the value from TSK/TPR. EDIT: I just measured it in TPR to be 4 tiles (the AI will attack you when you stand 4 tiles or closer from their soldier). If anyone disagrees let me know.

I'll make a new nightly build once it's implemented.

In my opinion, such a function should be really added sooner or later on. I am just playing a mission in vas new campaign section, and there I get attacked, when I only shoot at some serfs. However that might be programmed by dynamic scripts and not by static. Dicsoupcann told me yesterday, that defence positions in the Remake only work for buildings not for citizens: When you make a huge defence radius and a house is under attack, the army will attack you. When serfs will be under attack, they won´t attack you (but somehow I remember that also that was different somehow in tsk).

In the Remake serfs being attacked is treated by the AI the same as any other threat. Any defence position that is in range of the attacker will be sent to help. I'm pretty sure that's how it worked in TSK/TPR.

[The Dark Lord]

Does anyone remember how big the range is? We can make this an option you set for the AI, but by default it should be the value from TSK/TPR. EDIT: I just measured it in TPR to be 4 tiles (the AI will attack you when you stand 4 tiles or closer from their soldier). If anyone disagrees let me know.

I'm not entirely sure how it works, but I've noticed that the AI doesn't respond at all if you walk behind their soldiers (which makes a bit sense I guess, they don't have eyes in their backs do they?).

[pawel95]

You're right, we need to implement that to make the AI work properly. Until then it will almost always be possible to sneak into the enemy's base. I kind of forgot about that feature of TSK/TPR

Does anyone remember how big the range is? We can make this an option you set for the AI, but by default it should be the value from TSK/TPR. EDIT: I just measured it in TPR to be 4 tiles (the AI will attack you when you stand 4 tiles or closer from their soldier). If anyone disagrees let me know.

I agree with those 4 tiles, should be ok.
It shouldn´t work when you are "behind" these soldiers, like TDL said. However it would be cool if it works, when your soldier are like 1 tile right/left to it (So they don´t stand directly infront of those troops, but "next to" right or left of those troops. You got my point?

In the Remake serfs being attacked is treated by the AI the same as any other threat. Any defence position that is in range of the attacker will be sent to help. I'm pretty sure that's how it worked in TSK/TPR.

Ok not sure about that one, propably your are right



One last thing: Not sure if you have watched cmowlas replay, Lewin, but there are quite interesting things to see, even things that I haven´t seen yet He catched one group of xbows out and ran away with his knight on the whole map.
Like all soldiers just ran behind that Knight. Cmowla could just destroy the whole city of the ai then, but the ai troops didn´t came back to save that city, instead they are still running behind that ONE Knight
Shouldn´t be the "back" line whole time in the city, when the frontline is still alive, and for example only defend their city xd ?



Pawel95

[Lewin]

I agree with those 4 tiles, should be ok.
It shouldn´t work when you are "behind" these soldiers, like TDL said. However it would be cool if it works, when your soldier are like 1 tile right/left to it (So they don´t stand directly infront of those troops, but "next to" right or left of those troops. You got my point?

Does it matter if it's in all directions? It's kind of simpler to implement. I think you'd hear if someone wearing steel plate body armour was walking 10 meters behind you Are there any cases in the campaign where it matters what direction it is in? Surely this will be better because there are many cases were you can sneak past the AI's defences without walking directly in front of the soldiers?

One last thing: Not sure if you have watched cmowlas replay, Lewin, but there are quite interesting things to see, even things that I haven´t seen yet He catched one group of xbows out and ran away with his knight on the whole map.
Like all soldiers just ran behind that Knight. Cmowla could just destroy the whole city of the ai then, but the ai troops didn´t came back to save that city, instead they are still running behind that ONE Knight
Shouldn´t be the "back" line whole time in the city, when the frontline is still alive, and for example only defend their city xd ?

Well currently any defence position in range of the attacker will be sent there, even if it's only 1 knight. And once they've been sent they won't be sent on any other defending duties until they have killed that attacker (same as TSK/TPR). Does anyone remember why this didn't happen in TSK/TPR? Maybe it doesn't send all defence positions within range if the threat is only small? If anyone has any ideas let me know.

[pawel95]

About your first question, I don´t see any problems why you shouldn´t implement it with the easiest solution. Like you said, you should hear a swordmen with his big armory and in real life, the soldiers also turn around their head from times to times



To the 2nd part of your post:
Not sure how it worked exactly in tsk/tpr, but after a small talk with TDL we sumed up how the good old "shoot one group with one bowmen and run away" tactic worked in tpr/tsk :

The AI often "goes" back to his city, so you had to shoot one more time with your bowmen, that they will keep attacking you. That way round it was at least " a bit " harder to get all ai troops to your towers for example, and sth like cmowla did there with only one single knight, wouldn´t work in tsk tpr (That easy), because the ai wouldn´t follow one stupid knight all the time :p
Maybe that also were in connection with "agressivness" ? Because in some tsk missions, troops followed you longer, than in others, I think I can remember.

I am pretty sure it was a time factor, and not a distance factor. So when they tried to catch the bowmen "too long" they just go back to their city, so they can´t be trapped (They act, like the ai wouldn´t be stupid ).


Pawel95

[Lewin]

I've been testing the way the AI reacts to a single bowmen shooting their towers/army in various missions of TSK. It seems to all be working the way I remember in TSK, the right numbers of groups are sent. So it looks like the rule "send all defence positions within range of the attacker" is correct.

But we still have differences with the way the AI pursues the enemy:

1. In the Remake the pursuit is continuous, in the original game the pursuers would stop and wait. This is undoubtedly an improvement because it makes the AI smarter/more effective (mounted units can chase down single archers quite quickly), but it also makes the pursuit a lot shorter. Something to keep in mind when considering the next point.

2. The AI will pursue the enemy attacker indefinitely, no matter how far he walks or where he goes, meaning you can draw out the entire AI's army then attack their base, and they won't go back to defend. The AI should only pursue for a certain time/distance, not sure exactly how this should work. Any ideas?

It would be nice to iron out these few minor issues with the AI

[Vatrix]

Some things from newest fix for TSK20
Yellow soldiers left knights and went to kill themselfs

KaM 2014-01-03 13-52-38.jpg

What black guy saved

KaM 2014-01-03 13-52-47.jpg

I still have too much troops after attack

KaM 2014-01-03 13-53-41.jpg

[pawel95]

I have fixed now TSK 01-05. Changed back the Lances number in tsk05 to 2x12 instead of 2x20.
Now the result of the fight is nearly the same, as in tsk. Sometimes lauenburg wins with one lance carry left, often lauenburg looses(That´s why you have to help him with some bowmen ).

The + effect of the new nightly:
When the blue guy attacks you and just kills your milita, he continues attacking your axemen(because they are in the 4 tiles range )


To Vatrix:

1.)Have you played it in the newest Nightly?
2.)Oh that never happened to me, that those black knights won against lauenburg

[Vatrix]

1. No, nightly doesn't like my computer
2. It never happened to me, too .

Edit: I have nightly now.

[pawel95]

2.It never happened to me, too .

Well strange, because exactly that happened some times, before I fixed anything at Tsk20, then the yellow guys just missed the black horses. Seems like I have to play some testgames again. Just played 5 testgames(Only watched the initial attacks) and one time the black knights even won vs the lauenburgers, but I think that isn´t that drastic, because they had like 2 knights left. The other 4 times, your yellow all lost like no soldier Random...

[pawel95]

I need your help again.

Tsk08 is on the turn now

I tested it a few times, made like 6 towers(like the map is made for) and won like 4/5 times in total. Also TDL has won the mission and says that it´s ok. However we aren´t that bad in Fighting, I guess

So I wanted to ask the community:

Please play TSK08, only the Inital attack up to the 12th min.
Tell me how it was for you.
Try not to abuse the KaM Fighting system like splitting the army into 50 pieces.
Try at least once to defend on your own only with towers, not hiding and shooting behind your storehouse(It´s not really not allowed not to do this, but it´s way too easy like that and I lost like 5 axefighters like that )
Tell me if you played in the newest Nightly or in the normal Relase(If you have both versions, please play on the Nightly Version)

If you have to play tsk 01-07 first, until you can play tsk08 do that following trick.
Go into the campaign menu, press F11, press File, press Open mission, and open tsk08



I need feedback to rebalance that mission as best as possible

Thanks

Pawel95

[Vatrix]

I played it with six towers, splited axefighters for 6 groups, like I did in original TSK. Six axefighters and all bowmen survived that attack, I think it is like in TSK.

But one small graphic thing: repair this, it looks really bad.

My eyes hurt.jpg