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Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2013, 22:21
by Bo_
I'm ok with adding some gold, coal if really needed but..
What do I like about this map? It's hard, you have a slow start and that's just the way it is.
So i think you changed way too much about it:
- Bridge (wtf?)
- Preunlocked woodcutter (really no need)
- More trees (this map is supposed to be hard, DESERT)
- More food (same as for trees)
- More space for loc 3 (this loc has everything pretty close so already has an advantage in early game, after that it's just about puzzling)
- Delete scout (why would you want to remove that pony?)
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2013, 22:41
by koczis12
I'm ok with adding some gold, coal if really needed but..
What do I like about this map? It's hard, you have a slow start and that's just the way it is.
So i think you changed way too much about it:
- Bridge (wtf?)
- Preunlocked woodcutter (really no need)
- More trees (this map is supposed to be hard, DESERT)
- More food (same as for trees)
- More space for loc 3 (this loc has everything pretty close so already has an advantage in early game, after that it's just about puzzling)
- Delete scout (why would you want to remove that pony?)
I completely agree with every word that Bo said!
More trees (this map is supposed to be hard, DESERT)
This is what I'm talking about.
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2013, 23:18
by Jeronimo
I mistook with the locations To
... I was referring to north closed passage (I re-edited my previous post).
Respect Scout, my idea is to give him full condition bar rather than remove it.
To missed the concept of the Title, and tried to convert it into another "Wilderness" for 6 players.
I agree at several points with koczis12 + Bo... It's supposed to be a desert, not a wilderness clon.
Respect houses unlocked, I don't care that much, but try perhaps
only quarry.
The map has been famous because of its difficulty, I guess I wasn't the only one that after loading the map for first time thought "Oowwoo!... now it's another cheesy map that will sell well
", just like another easy product for weak players.
Could maps be balanced towards less stuff some day? Why not making a map more difficult instead of cheesy?
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2013, 13:07
by Leeuwgie
Ok so the people who posted here so far want minimum to no change, which I understand. That's the reason I also post it here, to get some feedback. Even the annoying pony at start is sacred to some, again it wasn't my idea to delete the scout. I'm not not sure I want to continue this project, atleast not aslong most people here are against changes. Maybe it's best to start over and only focus on the critical things like more wood/gold/coal and leave the map like it is with likely some more building/farming space for loc 1 and 3 only. Unlock woodcutter/quarry isnt in original so I will restore it and let the pony live (for now). Have I missed something? Again, I don't want it to change it into another map but I won't make it more difficult then it already is either.
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2013, 14:54
by Bo_
I think that you can fix the map, without changing the way it's played.
So:
- Loc 1:
No: Little more building/farming space
Yes: Removed the 2 stones so building won't be blocked anymore
No: Relocated the few trees right from the storehouse to the south so you can place some buildings without cutting those few trees.
Yes: More coal and removed trees from coal on northern section of the coalfield
No: Closed the entrance on the topleft so it's easier to defend your town.
No: Has now a bridge to quickly send help to player on loc 5
Loc 2:
Yes: Nothing has changed except a little more coal
Loc 3:
Yes: More coal
No: More space in general (also removed useless 2nd rock between loc 2 and 3)
No: More farmland
No: Way more trees
No: Entrance to the base little wider
Maybe: River is now larger so enemy archers can't shoot over it.
Loc 4:
Yes: Nothing has changed except some more coal (on 2nd coalfield)
No: and some more trees.
Yes: Fixed some ugly sharp-edged tiles below the storehouse.
Loc 5:
Yes: Nothing has changed except some more coal (on 1st coalfield)
No: and some more trees to the south.
Yes: Also removed 2 stones so you don't have to place building around it.
Loc 6:
No: Closed 2/5 entrances so you don't need to spend 10 mins building towers.
No: Trees near your stone for a fair start just like the others locs.
No: Added some more farmland.
No: Removed 2nd rock and placed trees there.
Yes: Some extra layers of coal at edge of coalfield so your 1st coalmines last longer.
No: 10 extra wine and 10 extra loaves added.
No: Possibility to build woodcutter's hut and quarry from start for quicker start.
No: More sight.
Gameplay on the map would be unchanged like this, but the extra coal/gold would prevent some players to have a macro advantage.
The terrain glitches just improve the look of the map.
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2013, 17:17
by sado1
I can agree with most of it, but not with
Loc 6:
No: Closed 2/5 entrances so you don't need to spend 10 mins building towers.
No: Trees near your stone for a fair start just like the others locs.
No: Added some more farmland.
No: Removed 2nd rock and placed trees there.
Yes: Some extra layers of coal at edge of coalfield so your 1st coalmines last longer.
Loc 6 is really really behind other locs... At least "Trees near your stone" is needed, imo.
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2013, 19:30
by pawel95
I also agree with all what mr Bo has said.
I only not understand this point:
- Delete scout (why would you want to remove that pony?)
I am maybe the biggest fans auf "ponies" in KaM. However since PT was included it is only a "pony" that is eating like 2 times in 60 Min PT and nothing more
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2013, 19:38
by Leeuwgie
I can agree with most of it, but not with
Loc 6:
No: Closed 2/5 entrances so you don't need to spend 10 mins building towers.
No: Trees near your stone for a fair start just like the others locs.
No: Added some more farmland.
No: Removed 2nd rock and placed trees there.
Yes: Some extra layers of coal at edge of coalfield so your 1st coalmines last longer.
Loc 6 is really really behind other locs... At least "Trees near your stone" is needed, imo.
Yes, that's the first thing I thought about when I wanted to balance this map, loc 6 really need some trees near his stone. Anyway, maybe it was better to post my 1st versions here earlier and work from there. I've now started over from the original and only applied the critical changes:
In this version they include:
Few more trees for each player except 2
Possibility to mine an extra 100 goldore for each player
Little more coal on the map except for 6 and 2
Replaced some sand for grass to have more farmingspace (1,3 and 6)
Removed a few annoying stones and bushes (only near storehouses)
Removed few trees from coal (1 and 5)
In this version they don't include:
Bridge
Extra space for 3
Closed entrance between 1 and 6
Prebuild woodcutter/quarry
Foodchanges
Starting pony removed
Extra sight from start
Etc.
Most people I spoke wanted for instance no startinghorse and wanted the prebuild option but I won't add it if the majority here is against it. So if you want other things changed here is the place to post it.
New version 0.4:
http://www.mediafire.com/?eyj01t6ox6qgxld
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2013, 16:06
by Mulberry
I can agree with most of it, but not with
Played with Bludmaster on Across the Desert fix 0.4 today. Map feels like an original one. Hard and tricky. I suggest you to try this version.(link in a quote)
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 14:50
by Ben
I'm a fan of the past, and I often miss the days when the forum was small and nearly void of trolling, hate, flaming. As well as the time when maps first starting coming out. Each map was a gem: a special piece. I don't like seeing the original maps changed, but Lewins's comment
...if we've fixed the bugs, improved the AI, improved the deliveries, and so on, then why shouldn't we improve the maps too?
is a really good argument. I remember not liking the Remake when it first came out. I, personally, felt that it ruined the nostalgic feeling of KaM. However, the Remake has grown on me. Lewin and Krom have done an excellent job; thus, I have no desire to return to TPR. I don't like touching the original maps, but the fixes to Wilderness were good. If we were to adjust Across the Desert, then I'm sure it'd grow on me, too.
However, perhaps we should leave the original maps alone anyway for the sole purpose of leaving them as a "remains" of an old game we all used to play.
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 15:12
by T*AnTi-V!RuZz
I'm a fan of the past, and I often miss the days when the forum was small and nearly void of trolling, hate, flaming.
I sometimes miss this too..
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 00:16
by Lewin
I'm a fan of the past, and I often miss the days when the forum was small and nearly void of trolling, hate, flaming.
I sometimes miss this too..
It's still better than a lot of other forums I know. But yeah in the past the community was much smaller and friendlier, although there were far less posts being made.
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 03:40
by Leeuwgie
After testing the 0.4 fix online yesterday I made some small changes to improve the map, thanks for the feedback guys. The main impression was that the map still played too slow so I scripted the prebuild of woodcutter/quarry again so you can set up your base a little faster if you want. Loc 6 is still way too hard to defend so I closed the entrance to the south. Furthermore the amount of serfs/builders at the start didn't make any sence (6 serfs and 3 builders) so I added another builder. I also placed a few extra trees for some players (yes I actually counted the starting trees). I think this map is upgraded enough now to fit in the new food/woodchanges without setting up a market and is more fun to play then it was before. Please take a look:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wjib5s2zko079kk
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 12:02
by thunder
Hey To!
I would to say at first i agree with you start to balance Across! I wish you a good work and if i can give you one advice listen to those players whose played really lot on this. That will help realy lot
Personaly i really dont like loc1 and 6 closed imo..I make a picture from why. Bottom...
1st-Every loc have one comon coalfield. Now, you closed the way beetween loc 1 and the common coalfileld.
2nd-Fighting areas...top vs bottom, left vs right...I drew many lines On the picture but i think to you will see what do i though. The brown line could work nearly the same how does loc45 works. Maybe. But im not an across fun.
What do you think about to give one or 2 tiles wider bridge to loc2? i didnt see to much brige attack. Loc2 has enough 10-15 X to hold that position, and can build on the bridge, and maybe easier to attak loc3's entrance.
With glad!
t
Re: Across the Desert fix
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 14:50
by Leeuwgie
Hey Thunder, Borders was too hopeless for me to begin with but you did a pretty good job so far. About Across, have you ever seen the player on loc 1 set up coalmines on the 2nd coalfield near loc 6? I can't remember seeing anyone do that tbh. So I added alot more coal to his 1st coalfield and removed some trees from the coal. On your sketch you show a left vs right setting. Right will have an unfair advantage so most people play north vs south. If you look at it this way you can see that 6 is too vunerable from a direct attack from 1 and 5 at the same time. I think most agree that 6 is by far the most hard/slow loc to play on and also has the most entrances to cover and is too easy to be overrun. So that's why I want that entrance to be blocked so 6 has a fair change and don't has to divide his forces up when rushed. Even with the changes I think 6 is still the hardest to play on, but has a better chance now.
Widen the bridge of 2, you really think it would help? I think not tbh. It's the way this map is designed, 2 players start on an island, that's a nice advantage.