Wooden Shields and Armory Workshops

[dicsoupcan]

I don´t understand that whole discussion at all. Only because a few people have problems with making leatherarmorworkshops in time, they want to let unlock a building faster.

Random already mentioned the point about random and ts players. If you want to add more buildings to the "fast build order" why not just to let all buildings be buildable from the beginning? That has nothing to do with the orginal KaM Building order, but who cares. In like each other rts game (starcraft,settlers,..) you can build all buildings whenever you want. You can build your barracks before school or ironmines before stonemeasons, no problem.
Like he said "Pro players will know what to build next anyway". (That´s the reason why the inn can be skipped also I guess). So randoms will get their goal suffused! Faster Games! Making iron in 5 min and then you can go for forester and sawmill.

actually many rts games have an unlock system, hell many of them even have a tech tree or some kind of research unlocking system, and i prefer the unlocking system the way it is, you can actually get an xbow and axefighter army the way it is. the problem is is tha tit is still not good as a mainstrema army compared to swords and bows. but it's a fine supporting army.

[Ben]

I like the unlocking system, too. However, that might be because I am accustomed to it. The game might be more interesting if you could build iron mines before the sawmill, for example.

So...ummm...what about the armory workshop? I still would like the possibility to unlock it after sawmill.

[pawel95]

I don´t understand that whole discussion at all. Only because a few people have problems with making leatherarmorworkshops in time, they want to let unlock a building faster.

Random already mentioned the point about random and ts players. If you want to add more buildings to the "fast build order" why not just to let all buildings be buildable from the beginning? That has nothing to do with the orginal KaM Building order, but who cares. In like each other rts game (starcraft,settlers,..) you can build all buildings whenever you want. You can build your barracks before school or ironmines before stonemeasons, no problem.
Like he said "Pro players will know what to build next anyway". (That´s the reason why the inn can be skipped also I guess). So randoms will get their goal suffused! Faster Games! Making iron in 5 min and then you can go for forester and sawmill.

actually many rts games have an unlock system, hell many of them even have a tech tree or some kind of research unlocking system, and i prefer the unlocking system the way it is, you can actually get an xbow and axefighter army the way it is. the problem is is tha tit is still not good as a mainstrema army compared to swords and bows. but it's a fine supporting army.

If you haven´t got my point: My post was full of irony. Sure I love the building order of KaM , why would I post so many "why"´s and would cry about the new building order (some months ago) It´s just: If Ben comes with that thing. Other players will say that he doesn´t like that ironsmithies are doable after ironmelter, because he has coal-delivery problems. If an ironsmithi would be buildable after coalmines, he could bring coal earlier to that building -.-
So why not just let everything unlocked from the beginnning.

[Ben]

It´s just: If Ben comes with that thing. Other players will say that he doesn´t like that ironsmithies are doable after ironmelter, because he has coal-delivery problems. If an ironsmithi would be buildable after coalmines, he could bring coal earlier to that building -.-
So why not just let everything unlocked from the beginnning.

That's not consistent with what I said. An armory workshop is 100% functional with only timber. An iron smithy cannot function without iron ore; making non-functional.

[Freddy]

That's not consistent with what I said. An armory workshop is 100% functional with only timber. An iron smithy cannot function without iron ore; making non-functional.

50% functional

[Tiank]

If someone wants to play with all buildings unlocked, he can easily try it by unlocking them in editor. I don't really see a need that all buildings are available at start by default. It's logical, why you need to go through some buildings step by step, have stone first, then wood, then you go for food/gold/weapon production and everything else. Whole KaM is like that, to have axe, you need wooden desk, to have wooden desk you need timber. Changing that would ruin KaM spirit in my opinion.

Ben, if you really want to have Armory Workshop unlocked after sawmill, make a script for that and try it on some map(s) .

[Ben]

That's not consistent with what I said. An armory workshop is 100% functional with only timber. An iron smithy cannot function without iron ore; making non-functional.

50% functional

False, you can work at 100% making only shields (although only 50% of its "abilities are available so maybe we're both right )

@TianK The problem with using a script is because the freakin hippies on Teamspeak who are "supposed" to be "beta testers" have no interest whatsoever in testing new things. Irony at its best...

[Esthlos]

Usually as far as i know the games with a tech tree are games with a simplier economy where the high tech units are way better than the low techs, which means that without the tree nobody would make the simplier units.

For example, in Warzone 2100 (who has an extensive tech tree) nobody would make wheeled tanks if everybody could go directly for the hovercrafts, which are faster, just as tough as the wheels, cost pretty much the same and can run over water too.
Another example would be the Heroes series... low level units, while very cheap, are also very weak unless stacked in very high numbers, and even then they die extremely fast. If you could go directly for the high levels without building the lower levels first, probably they'd never be built again.
A final example would be Homeworld, where you have to do extensive research in order to build capital ships... and rightly so. A few Missile Destroyers in the first game can easily dispose of entire fleets of fighters and bombers, fleets that easily cost the same and could never hurt the Mothership fast enough to win the game. If you could go directly for capital ships or supercapitals, a huge portion of the game would go away.

In games like KaM instead, where the economy isn't as simple, things are different.
The Settlers 2, 3 and 4 are very similar to KaM, but if I recall correctly there every building is unlocked from the start.
Why can they afford this? Exactly for the fact that I pointed out in my last post and some other users have already reiterated: there is no reason not to... even if you build a Mill immediately, without a Farm it's useless anyway.

I think Ben is actually right: you (we) are simply accustomed to the unlock system, and the elitist nature of the teamspeak community (oh admit it, you are very elitist... just read any post where there is the word "teamspeak"!) probably plays a big role in its hostility to pretty much any change, even meaningless ones.

I'd like to stress this again: with everything unlocked, pretty much nothing will change for players who only care about the most optimal build order, and this is thanks to KaM's complex economic system.
But this would make sub-optimal and risky build orders if not viable at least possible.

[Tiank]

But having everything unlocked could change a lot to other players. RMK is a Remake of and old game. Many people now rediscover this old game after many years. They can refresh their memories from childhood and thanks to bug fixes and new useful features they can play their favourite game with others. I can imagine, that a player like that, who remember old KaM, sees changes in unlocking order (everything unlocked), he would be like "WHAT? Why?". It's characteristic for KaM, going step by step through economical tree.

Most players want to have fun, without having to think what is more optimal, which need a lot of analysis. I'm playing RMK for about a year now, still learning how to make the most efficent build. Progress in skill is slow, but easier, thanks to current unlock order. I know, that I can't skip some parts of building, so I can focus on improving elsewhere. It's keeping you on a certain road. With everything unlocked there could be more chaos in random games...

Also, as I wrote before, unlock order makes setting up economy logical and easier for most players. For more experienced players having to unlocking everything step by step makes game challenging, it forces to make everything as early as possible, balancing on the edge of available resources.

[Lewin]

The unlock order providers guidance for inexperienced players and makes the game easier to play when you are not so experienced. KaM already has a fairly steep learning curve (especially multiplayer) and I wouldn't want to make it even harder for new players by confusing them with 29 buildings which can be built at the start (more than most RTS games). If a new player does not build their resource production in the right order they will run out of something and lose.

[Esthlos]

Good point... off the top of my head, I can think of two possible solutions that would unlock everything while keeping the guidance for new players:

1 - Instead of unlocked, buildings get highlighted (maybe make everything selectable but greyed out at the start, and give the icons their colour only when the required building is built); you could still build whatever whenever you want, but you'd know that some buildings are only useful after you already have others.

2 - Add an option in the in-game Settings menu to unlock every building, so that everybody can use what s/he likes.
This way you could even start with the current unlock order, disable it just to build an Armory Workshop right after the Sawmill, and then re-enable it.

As for the railroading that makes theorycrafting of the build order less variable, in my opinion it is actually a limiting factor of the current system...

[sado1]

2 sucks, since this means a player needs to find a well hidden option in the goddamn Options (which are not supposed to be gameplay changing... and this would give an advantage to a player who knows about it).

[dicsoupcan]

i guess #1 cannot hurt and makes sense, people will know what buildoings are coming when you unlock new ones after playing a frew times anyway.

as for #2, that is hard to do. if it would be done it should be done in multiplayer lobbies in order to synchronize with other players, and the devs do not want to give more options that might divide the community. although a few testgames with everything unlocked can be easily set up because you can make everything unlocked in a map trhough the map editor. as for ben, i am willing to test new ideas, but if i think it has no use or am indifferent about something (like your suggestion, my apologies ) i am not too lazy to voice that too. and even if i am opposed i am willing to help test stuff so now more excuses, go make that script

[Ben]

I still don't like the idea of all buildings being unlocked from start. However, I also don't see it as a problem for beginners. Just have the tutorial (which itself needs to be improved) use normal unlock order and they should be fine ;p

[dicsoupcan]

I still don't like the idea of all buildings being unlocked from start. However, I also don't see it as a problem for beginners. Just have the tutorial (which itself needs to be improved) use normal unlock order and they should be fine ;p

as i stated before, it is already possible to make everything unlocked fomr the start in the map editor, there is no need to make a game option for it if people like to play that way they just edit the map.