Regarding siege workshop and town hall

[woloszek]

OOps, Kamykos broke someone's minds. Seriously I agree with that in 100%.

[sado1]

Before all siege fans make their own agree posts, I hurry to explain that dynamic scripts are something that doesn't break normal maps, and normal gameplay. And they are magical but they cannot be seen, unlike the "nobody moves the catapult" issue.

tldr; leave my scripts alone siege people ;o

[Krom]

Dynamic Scripts are there to be used by mapmakers. How they use them - is their choice. One can make a script where making a barrel of Wine blows up neighbor village and selecting a house summons 10000 barbarians. (should I remind you about scripting maps competitions with RPG maps?). That however does not justify introduction of atomic bombs or cloning into standard "tech-tree"

[Kamykos]

Before all siege fans make their own agree posts, I hurry to explain that dynamic scripts are something that doesn't break normal maps, and normal gameplay.

Yes it is true. So when we have siege weapons in dynamic scripts they won't break "normal maps and normal gameplay". I don't see a problem there again.

And they are magical but they cannot be seen, unlike the "nobody moves the catapult" issue.

tldr; leave my scripts alone siege people ;o

Again I don't understand "they cannot be seen" part. You can't see that building is making by itself but you can see that machine is moving itself?

Dynamic Scripts are there to be used by mapmakers. How they use them - is their choice. One can make a script where making a barrel of Wine blows up neighbor village and selecting a house summons 10000 barbarians. (should I remind you about scripting maps competitions with RPG maps?). That however does not justify introduction of atomic bombs or cloning into standard "tech-tree"

Wait a minute. To be clear, I only proposed to add machines in dynamic scripts (like town hall units are right now), not in normal tech-tree. Okay, so again. One can make a barrel of wine blowing neighbour village and select a house summons 10000 barbarians, he can make horses flying, piggies can turn into dragons, turn all workers into womens (and ruin his economy), force butcher man to play banjo but he can't make a siege machine because...
...they can move by themselves and this is not natural.
I know I went to far with this, but I'm sure you got my point.

[The Dark Lord]

Dynamic Scripts are there to be used by mapmakers. How they use them - is their choice. One can make a script where making a barrel of Wine blows up neighbor village and selecting a house summons 10000 barbarians. (should I remind you about scripting maps competitions with RPG maps?). That however does not justify introduction of atomic bombs or cloning into standard "tech-tree"

So what about adding siege equipment to the game the same way the town hall units were added? Without the possibility to create more of them? Of course I would like to have them the way they were in TPR (maybe rebalanced, but with the siege workshop), but since you somehow are unwilling to even consider it I could also live with this suggestion. This way, it's just like dynamic scripts. They can be used by map makers and how they use them is their choice! It would allow me to finish mission 8, 9, 10, 13 and 15 of TNL, because the enemy only needs to have some catapults/ballistas at the start of the mission and does not require ways of creating them himself. Only for mission 14 I would have to find a solution, but I'll survive that.
Sieging fortresses and castles is just not the same without siege weapons.

[pawel95]

In my opinion the Townhall like now isn´t even thaaaat OP in multiplayer, seriously. You could start making your army after PT, so that would mean even if you have like 3 townhalls at PT, you would have like 3 barbs a few min after PT. Most people have too few gold in modern mp maps, and not too many of it. Sure, you can discuss about the costs for every kind of army, but it´s the same with the siege. If you could starting to make your first catapult AFTER PT and it would cost like 10 ironbars instead of 5, I don´t see a "very OP" unit there.

[Rhaenon]

Now, this idea just popped into my mind, be aware: didn't think it through.

What if we would have a unit (recruit or something) just walk behind the catapult?
We wouldn't have to redraw a ton of sprites, and the illusion would be created it is pushed. Also nerfs the food problem, since you need to feed the unit walking behind it.
Problem here is: is it possible to do this code wise?
Maybe an easy option would be (I have no idea if this is possible) to do something with like the add to group? Like it is part of the unit, and then code it to always walk behind it.
Of course, this would bring up the discussion about what if the recruit is killed? But then you could maybe have the recruit replaced?

End of crazy ideas.

[Kamykos]

I really don't know how to convince you that argument with self moving machines is invalid when we are talking about dynamic scripts . Lewin and Krom, I am talking to you right now .
You gave us command:

  Code:

HouseAddBuildingProgress

Because of that buildings can be made by themselves. Now my question is: what is the difference between self making building and self moving machine?
Second question: if you don't see a difference why can't you add a command for adding siege machines(exactly the same way like town hall units are right now). I know many people would like to make machines more balanced, but it is not a matter now. Now I only try to tell you that self moving machines is not a problem here.

I would really appreciate if this topic wouldn't be ignored by creators of Remake .

[Ben]

What if we would have a unit (recruit or something) just walk behind the catapult?
We wouldn't have to redraw a ton of sprites, and the illusion would be created it is pushed. Also nerfs the food problem, since you need to feed the unit walking behind it.
Problem here is: is it possible to do this code wise?

It's been suggested many times. Whether we need 10,000 images or 100, we still need something drawn, and as far as I know, we have no active members on this forum right now who can draw KaM sprites. Maybe somebody on the Russian forum can; though, ask Krom
Another problem is that if a recruit is shown pushing it, then the image might be too large to take only one tile. Siege equipment might have to take two tiles. I wager that would cause conflict in both gameplay and mechanics.

[pawel95]

It's been suggested many times. Whether we need 10,000 images or 100, we still need something drawn, and as far as I know, we have no active members on this forum right now who can draw KaM sprites.

Everyone can who has a bit knowledge on drawing on a PC, the better question is if we have anyone who has the Talent to make nice looking pics

[Lewin]

Rebalancing and implementing siege equipment is a big task. If we do it, we would want to add it as a core game feature not some optional thing that can be enabled by scripts. Our idea would be that the siege workshop is available in multiplayer and singleplayer maps by default (but could optionally be disabled by the map author like any other house). Therefore it needs to be very well balanced because it would be a significant change to the core gameplay.

We're not saying we will implement siege equipment, however, it is certainly something we would think about after this release. Siege equipment certainly won't be implemented for this upcoming release which we are currently beta testing.

[Killer!!]

You could make siege weapons unmoveable? Isn't that an option?
I don't know how to do that in mp games... Maybe that if one is made by the weaponmaker you can move it 1 time to the spot you want? As a defensive weapon?

[The Dark Lord]

Rebalancing and implementing siege equipment is a big task. If we do it, we would want to add it as a core game feature not some optional thing that can be enabled by scripts. Our idea would be that the siege workshop is available in multiplayer and singleplayer maps by default (but could optionally be disabled by the map author like any other house).

I keep wondering... WHY?!
I don't know ANY game where singleplayer and multiplayer are exactly the same! And what about the difference between town hall units and siege equipment? Why add the town hall units without the town hall, but not the siege weapons without siege workshop? What's opposed to that?
Maybe we should start a poll to see how people think about it.

Also, I really hate the 'magically moving' argument. It seems to be the biggest reason not to add siege weapons to the game, yet you did add a marketplace where wares are being transformed into others. And nobody asked for a marketplace that works that way, yet again we do ask for siege weapons. Not even mentioning that 'having the sprites available isn't a reason to implement them', although that's exactly what happened with the marketplace, a building that has been and will be subject of discussion for eternity since it turned out to be game-wrecking.

[Kamykos]

Rebalancing and implementing siege equipment is a big task. If we do it, we would want to add it as a core game feature not some optional thing that can be enabled by scripts. Our idea would be that the siege workshop is available in multiplayer and singleplayer maps by default (but could optionally be disabled by the map author like any other house).

I keep wondering... WHY?!
I don't know ANY game where singleplayer and multiplayer are exactly the same! And what about the difference between town hall units and siege equipment? Why add the town hall units without the town hall, but not the siege weapons without siege workshop? What's opposed to that?
Maybe we should start a poll to see how people think about it.

I can understand that balance is a thing here (someone can tell that town hall units are not that powerfull as machines) and it needs time to make it balanced. Anyway I can't understand why machines can't be implemented in dynamic scripts after those balance changes.

[dicsoupcan]

Rebalancing and implementing siege equipment is a big task. If we do it, we would want to add it as a core game feature not some optional thing that can be enabled by scripts. Our idea would be that the siege workshop is available in multiplayer and singleplayer maps by default (but could optionally be disabled by the map author like any other house).

I keep wondering... WHY?!
I don't know ANY game where singleplayer and multiplayer are exactly the same! And what about the difference between town hall units and siege equipment? Why add the town hall units without the town hall, but not the siege weapons without siege workshop? What's opposed to that?
Maybe we should start a poll to see how people think about it.

I can understand that balance is a thing here (someone can tell that town hall units are not that powerfull as machines) and it needs time to make it balanced. Anyway I can't understand why machines can't be implemented in dynamic scripts after those balance changes.

the problem with balance is, you need a point to start. see where the strenght and weaknesses are. and i have been thinking, i actually thought a bit about it and predict that siege units are actually underpowered except in some cases (mostly lategame). i think it is underpowered because it has not once tried to fit in the current meta, where the amount of soldiers are quite large and knights run amok amongst enemy ranged units. ranged units are being massed and shielded melee dominate the battlefield with occasional support from anti cavalry units. the amount of siege engies that can be build within 60 pt (ofcourse that is my base case, larger pt might need some extra analyzing) will not be many since it costs a lot of resources which it should be for their power. you use 5 ironbars which equals 2,5 iron units (a bit less in the case of swords) and 5 wood which can be 2,5 militia or any leather unit if you got the armor.

if you make for example 4 siege engines this costs 10 iron units and 10 leather units/militia, which means the enemy has a stronger melee position which in that case makes it harder for you to hold position. in this knight meta the knights can easily outmaneuver and destroy enemy ranged units. on top of that the superior numbers of the enemy melee will make sure to win the battle on the main line. for reasons like this it would be wise to make only 1 siege engies to power up your army in order to not sacrifice to much power in the rest of your army composition. and since this meta requires fast support/attacks due to the knights being dominant in support and in rare cases as main army the siege engines only slow your army down.

in conclusion i think it would not be a bad idea to include the siege engines in the next next upcoming release( it has been stated they won't come this next release), because i do not think it will shake up the current meta and balance too much. on the contrary, i actually think they will make a minor difference at most.