Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 21:41**

Bo is right, Ben doesnt seem to be making any significant point in his post apart from stating the obvious function of the market while being completely biased against market.

If market operated so simply then everyone would be able to produce army spam like mad, but why doesnt it happen? because market is a fairly balanced tool that only few understand enough to be able to use it effectively , unlike random people comming in and writing stuff like "Market replaces farms/pigfarms...!! OMG OMG!!"

I don't think I understand this. Obviously, I hate the marketplace, and I will state my opinions on it as I wish, but my point is this: I do not like the marketplace for the reason that it directly interferes with the KaM economy. It takes out much importance to taking great care to manage and create each individual resource. Players who do not use the marketplace are at a huge disadvantage. The marketplace doesn't fit into KaM. This is a Remake of KaM. Not Age of Kings.

These are my thoughts and opinions. They are not facts. I know that you can't replace (efficiently) your farms, woodcutters huts, coal mines, etc. The fact that you can skip an entire building (like the stable) and still get the resources still bothers me.

Also, people may not spam "army like mad" but they still can spam tree-trunks. And that does happen. And it's not cool.

EDIT: I'm also getting a little tired of this "I know better because I'm an expert" attitude...

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 21:41**

I think it's not about the market, but about the coal.
Market is totaly balanced.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 21:42**

So why is coal a problem now? It wasn't before the marketplace.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 21:43**

You mean like this?

I just don't feel like replying on everything I don't agree on.

Last post was a reply to TDL's reply for people who didn't notice.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 21:50**

I do not like the marketplace for the reason that it directly interferes with the KaM economy. It takes out much importance to taking great care to manage and create each individual resource. Players who do not use the marketplace are at a huge disadvantage. The marketplace doesn't fit into KaM. This is a Remake of KaM. Not Age of Kings. [/i]

Market doesn't replace any building. It feels someway like you have a conservative attitude, 'I don't want to change anything.'
Pretty much the same with people for the town hall, not because it's too easy to produce soldiers but because 'baracks should be the only building that allow you to train units, it's kam style'.
It feels more like 'old is gold, I'm not up to new things'.

The market is a new building wich completes some states in the game that weren't 'complete'. (Like the first 20 min of the game being way too slow.)
But again, it's doesn't replace any other building.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 21:55**

Market doesn't replace any building. It feels someway like a conservative attitude, I don't want to change anything. Pretty much the same with people for the town hall, not because it's too easy to produce soldiers but because 'baracks should be the only building that allow you to train units, it's kam style'. It feels more like old is gold, I'm not open for new things.
It's a new building wich completes some states in the game that weren't 'complete'. (Like the first 20 min of the game being way too slow.)
But again, it's doesn't replace any other building.

This is largely where my beliefs are held! The Remake was designed to Remake KaM. It should try not to completely change how the economy works.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:02**

We agree on this, new features.

Like I said to TDL before, in the original TSK a mission took around 8 hours, impossible for multiplayer. (Maybe for some of us here who have absolutly nothing else to do.)
Market adds complexity to the game, manage to trade the right amount of something on the right time. But again, I like the market and for me it realy doesn't simplify the game,
if you hate it I respect that but we can't impose to eachother to change our mind.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:07**

Hm... what i think is, that market balance is good now ( except iron for horse ).
But for all the guys who want to higher the values of the market: There will be everytime a trade in market which seems imbalanced. If you higher the value of one ware there will appear a new "overpowered" trade.
Then people will say again that we have to change the value of that ware. This will go on and on until noone uses market anymore because the trades are too expencive.
So then you can delete it if it is not useful anymore. But deleting it is not my aim, because the market is a great idea to help and support players. So why searching for an impossible balance of market when its logical and already tested that maps with limited resources have no problems with marketabuse.
Maybe someone here has the perfect balance of market in his mind but you have to remember that market should help you in sticky situations where you probably dont have a lot of resources to trade so market couldn´t help you as good as it can now. - So if someone here wants to offer me a perfect balance , im very interested

(For the guys here who dislike marketabuse i really recommend playing maps like golden cliffs , across the desert and cursed ravine - u will see heavy coal->tree trunks - trade is not possible => it´s playing with a minimum usage of market)

Btw i just noticed that some players have a little production because they might be not that good now . Honestly i cant imagine how trading will work there because im normally going for 10 coalmines 3 goldmines and 3 ironmines which speaks for a big weaponproduction so maybe guys with little weaponproductions will have a bigger advantage of marketabuse because every map has more than enough coal then for them. But actually i dont think this is a big problem, acutally it´s helping weaker players to get more troops after end of peacetime , so they have better chances to resist against a better guy with a big weaponproduction.
This is ofcourse related on low-coal-maps where big producers can´t use marketabuse and little producers can help themself with marketabuse.

I just want to bring it nearer to you that the final solution isn´t necessarily in changing the values of the market. I think Lewin had an idea behind this marketvalues and didn´t just make them without thinking about the consequences.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:13**

This will go on and on until noone uses market anymore because the trades are too expencive.
So then you can delete it if it is not useful anymore.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:21**

But for all the guys who want to higher the values of the market: There will be everytime a trade in market which seems imbalanced. If you higher the value of one ware there will appear a new "overpowered" trade.
Then people will say again that we have to change the value of that ware. This will go on and on until noone uses market anymore because the trades are too expencive.

Indeed. And that's the point when the market has reached its real purpose: to help out in emergency cases.

acutally it´s helping weaker players to get more troops after end of peacetime , so they have better chances to resist against a better guy with a big weaponproduction.

Indeed, the better guy gets punished for not abusing his coal field. Although he is able to have a better weapon production, the weaker player can still catch up by filthy trades.

I think Lewin had an idea behind this marketvalues and didn´t just make them without thinking about the consequences.

I think Lewin now realizes that many trades are way to cheap.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:24**

Indeed. And that's the point when the market has reached its real purpose: to help out in emergency cases.

If the marketplace was only used to exchange goods between players, than an ally could help out an emergency.

Then we wouldn't need the market for trades.

That doesn't change the fact that stone and gold will eventually run out.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:24**

i renember a game where i kept trading coal for tree trunk for 40 minutes long. after pt i hardly had any coal left to keep going. market is usefull but not without any risks. it is fair to have traded so much and had hardly any raw materials left, it is the price i paid and i suffered the whole game from it. i do understand why people do not think the market is unbalanced but i think it is. even if you abuse it you must renember not taking it too far, a good mistake screws you over more then making a town without market.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:27**

This will go on and on until noone uses market anymore because the trades are too expencive.
So then you can delete it if it is not useful anymore.

I see you want to delete the market but pls don´t make quotes of my post which are taken out of the context.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:29**

Please forgive me. Perhaps a language barrier here. I thought you were saying that if the marketplace values were changed, than the marketplace wouldn't be used because it would be worthless. I was saying that I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Did I misunderstand you?

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:30**

But for all the guys who want to higher the values of the market: There will be everytime a trade in market which seems imbalanced. If you higher the value of one ware there will appear a new "overpowered" trade.
Then people will say again that we have to change the value of that ware. This will go on and on until noone uses market anymore because the trades are too expencive.
Indeed. And that's the point when the market has reached its real purpose: to help out in emergency cases.

But you think you will have that many resources to trade in an emergency case to help you out of it?

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