Balance testing release r4297

[Jeronimo]

God I hate builder rushes. In my eyes, a sign of weakness. One way to fix it might be to prevent builders to build x squares from enemy buildings.

Something like this is probably the best solution, although I think we could limit it to just "not allowed to build within range of a completed enemy tower". The problem is that in a map like The Valley of Dangers you could block your enemy by building a tower in the valley... but maybe that's not such a big deal because the tower would kill the laborers anyway.
It also won't stop builder rushes if people have explored to somewhere past the enemy towers because they can just build there instead...

Antiviruz suggestion is best... Also remember that in VoD2, you can build quick militias, and destroy that building in center, it would be a problem only if building blocking you is built during PT (this map is not the case).

I recommend to follow that solution.
Prevent builders to build x squares from enemy buildings.

Question IMO is... how many X squares? I vote for 8 tiles.

[The Dark Lord]

Uhm, making first militia takes approximately 13 minutes. It's not hard to build a tower in the center in 13 minutes.

[Jeronimo]

Is not hard to destroy a tower without soldiers to back it up...
There are alternatives, placing 1/3 building as well, so you have access to half coal.
There are many tactics not written to think about (how to counter a certain opponent decision).

[EDMatt]

Is not hard to destroy a tower without soldiers to back it up...
There are alternatives, placing 1/3 building as well, so you have access to half coal.
There are many tactics not written to think about (how to counter a certain opponent decision).

Thinking of how to balance the game just to suit one map is silly.

[Leeuwgie]

I wanted to play enough games in the beta first before responding here. I think I played about 70 games now in the beta so I know pretty well how the new changes work ingame. The shieldbonus is a very good thing. Since swordsmen are hard to produce in numbers they should be strong. Strong but not overpowered is how they are now, so I suggest to keep the changes the way they are now. I think swords + bows (they both are buffed) are stronger then axefighters + xbows which is fine. I see alot more bowmen being used. Almost nobody trains lance carriers anymore. Eventhough it's easier to create them most people just add a shield so they can use the buffed axemen instead (they also have more attack). Pikemen are trained sometimes but way less then before so horses have also a better role to play in the game, I even see players train scouts sometimes. So basicly we see all units used, instead of the xbow + militia or the xbow + lancecarrier combination like it was in the public release. I tried several things myself before I found the right buildorder but going only for swordsmen or xbows isn't really succesfull. A mix of different units seems to work better. Players who rush early with mass swordsmen and militia is hard to stop but not unbeatable and very easy to counterattack.
About the market, I'm used to play without it now and I'm a little annoyed to see some heavy market abuse being used sometimes. I think the market should mainly be used in long games when you're out of resources and not to trade trunks for horses or something. So I suggest to keep it the way it is in the public release. Things that IMO need to be addressed ASAP are builderrush and maybe towerspam. I usually don't use the builderrush myself only to players who have a lot of towers and use the same tactics to me. BTW there are other lame tactics that become increasingly popular nowadays, like blocking the entrances to a base with buildings that have many hitpoints like a barracks or a market. I'm not sure if there is a solution for it, probably not. Unless we add siege equipment to the game again but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Anyway I don't want to complain in this post because I think these changes are a huge step in the right direction.

To

[dicsoupcan]

BTW there are other lame tactics that become increasingly popular nowadays, like blocking the entrances to a base with buildings that have many hitpoints like a barracks or a market. I'm not sure if there is a solution for it, probably not.

I have to agree that this is a lame tactic, but for normal bases you can only defend by sacrificing the economy of your base and go fo urban warfare if you do not block entrances. And when you defeated the army your economy is down so the counterattack is not really easy, since you need to rebuild your town. I renember da revolution needing to build his economy on dead of winter after wiping out the rush army, and by the time he could produce normally again the game was over.

but i agree it is a huge step in the good direction

[Szybki Ben]

Adressing the tower spam problem might be a little diffrent. Bring back siege worskhop building, and allow us to train balistas, which could only attack buildings. They would deal, lets say, 50 damage per shot, with delay about 4-7 seconds between following shots. Of course prices and time neede to build one such unit should be considered but lets say, 5 wood and 3 irons bars with time needed about 30 sec?

Builder rush.
Well this problem is very hard to fix, easiest way, for me, is forbidding building roads, wineyards and cornfields in the distance greater than, lets say, 30-40 squares from the closest, finished, building. This wouldn't affect building strategies much I think and if such problem occours, we could implement diffrent distances for diffrent map sizes (XXL, 80 squares, Xl 65-70 etc etc).

[Debaron]

I wanted to play enough games in the beta first before responding here. I think I played about 70 games now in the beta so I know pretty well how the new changes work ingame. The shieldbonus is a very good thing. Since swordsmen are hard to produce in numbers they should be strong. Strong but not overpowered is how they are now, so I suggest to keep the changes the way they are now. I think swords + bows (they both are buffed) are stronger then axefighters + xbows which is fine. I see alot more bowmen being used. Almost nobody trains lance carriers anymore. Eventhough it's easier to create them most people just add a shield so they can use the buffed axemen instead (they also have more attack). Pikemen are trained sometimes but way less then before so horses have also a better role to play in the game, I even see players train scouts sometimes. So basicly we see all units used, instead of the xbow + militia or the xbow + lancecarrier combination like it was in the public release. I tried several things myself before I found the right buildorder but going only for swordsmen or xbows isn't really succesfull. A mix of different units seems to work better. Players who rush early with mass swordsmen and militia is hard to stop but not unbeatable and very easy to counterattack.
About the market, I'm used to play without it now and I'm a little annoyed to see some heavy market abuse being used sometimes. I think the market should mainly be used in long games when you're out of resources and not to trade trunks for horses or something. So I suggest to keep it the way it is in the public release. Things that IMO need to be addressed ASAP are builderrush and maybe towerspam. I usually don't use the builderrush myself only to players who have a lot of towers and use the same tactics to me. BTW there are other lame tactics that become increasingly popular nowadays, like blocking the entrances to a base with buildings that have many hitpoints like a barracks or a market. I'm not sure if there is a solution for it, probably not. Unless we add siege equipment to the game again but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Anyway I don't want to complain in this post because I think these changes are a huge step in the right direction.

To

Interesting to read your thoughts, seems more fun with more variety of units for sure!

Only question I have is, don't tower spammers get punished by their increased food consumption in the longer run? Would like to hear some expert opinions on this.

[Krom]

I know of 2 main exploits:

1. Use builders to empty enemy towers
2. Cover all of the enemies territory with houseplans/fields

How does the new builders rush you mention works exactly? Please describe it in detail.

[EDMatt]

I know of 2 main exploits:

1. Use builders to empty enemy towers
2. Cover all of the enemies territory with houseplans/fields

How does the new builders rush you mention works exactly? Please describe it in detail.

Oh , there are well over 2 exploits , and some very dirty tricks that can be used.
Ill look for a screenshot of a game i had recently.

[Krom]

I'm interested in getting a list with summarized descriptions for all the exploits. So that we had all the info somewhere in one place, rather than scattered

[Leeuwgie]

Let Matt post a full list of kam exploits here, after all he's the expert . I just saw a replay where a player blocked the entrance to his base, not really fun to play this way, I guess some players don't have enough skill to stop a simple rush so they come up with lame tactics like this:

[dicsoupcan]

Let Matt post a full list of kam exploits here, after all he's the expert . I just saw a replay where a player blocked the entrance to his base, not really fun to play this way, I guess some players don't have enough skill to stop a simple rush so they come up with lame tactics like this:

I wish you much luck defending a normal base against a simple rush without tactics like this. And renember that you can use his blockade against him, since his units cannot pass trhough it easily aswell.

[Nissarin]

Let Matt post a full list of kam exploits here, after all he's the expert . I just saw a replay where a player blocked the entrance to his base, not really fun to play this way, I guess some players don't have enough skill to stop a simple rush so they come up with lame tactics like this:

"Walling off" entrance to your base is pretty common practice in RTS games, especially against rushes, granted, "timings" are different and it takes far more time to destroy buildings so it's annoying but if it's against some cheesy rush strat..

[EDMatt]

Let Matt post a full list of kam exploits here, after all he's the expert . I just saw a replay where a player blocked the entrance to his base, not really fun to play this way, I guess some players don't have enough skill to stop a simple rush so they come up with lame tactics like this:

The tower placement is noob , better be scattered , it will be more effective that way.