Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

[thunder]

Good morning!
Always the ideas into this topic:D
Ralley point for the Idle serfs.

I think to everybody understand what I mean. This would be a point where the idle serfs would wait their jobs. Of course it would maybe change the gamemechanic of the serfs, but it could be optional also. Select a ralley point or use the original method.
-when mass idle serfs are waiting around the barrack and still lots of serfs are wanting to go in and many units want to coming out is a very problematinc situation mainly if your barrack is in deeply in the city or in a closed position next to edge of the map or edges of the map.

Cons:
-Could change the serfs mechanic
-possible a/the serf would start his job later because would need to rich the ralley point. (If coud pick job under the travelling/moving to the ralley point could be nice or if somebody would use this trick then this travelling time be the cost of this process...)

Pros:
-There are some buildings which are overused (Resturante,Barrack and Storehouse etc...)
-Sometimes players have more serfs than a village needs so the idle serfs are mostly waiting around next to busy buildings.
-The idle serfs can be reasons to create huge traffic jams
-Idle serfs reserving the narrow streets creating mass traffic jams so these idle serfs immediately would go to their rally point which would be freely chosen in the village
-the ralley point for serfs could help to reduce traffic jams around these buildings
-LEss blocinkg effect by the idle serfs

The real solutions at this moment:
-well cityplans
-Barrack at the edge of the city with huge space around for the idle serfs and the trained untis could not distrub each other
-double road into two directions in front of th barrack
-double road in front of the inn and storehouse.(these are mostly necesarry)


PS: An upgraded idea the backdoor to the barracks. It is under testphase in a dynamic script now where a group of units are added to the topside of the barrack when that is walkable. So theoreticaly the barrack has 2 entrances:
one for the citizens and one for the soilders (yeah that is rather like an exit point)

[Rey]

Script 2nd exit door for barracks - love it

Problem is worth considering. Currently we have no "come back" mechanic in case you failed with city planning or if barracks are close to the edge of the map (which is also city planning btw ). You can't force serfs to move anywhere in the village out of barracks or let them die/dissapear/pay them 1 extra gold chest just to fire them.

Btw there was an alternative idea which solves this problem: dismiss button for units to let them go back to school. You want to hire somebody. Then you want to fire them.

[Krom]

Idle serfs are very good "penalty" for over-training and centralizing town too much.

[thunder]

Script 2nd exit door for barracks - love it

unfortunately it is in alpha phase, but already can help a lot to reduce the trafficjam in front of the barrack what is becausee the mass trained soilders. I use this for training monster units from the barrack.

Idle serfs are very good "penalty" for over-training and centralizing town too much.

Penality?
I'm really sorry, but I agree, this seems a penality. Training too much serfs need larger economy to feed them. Hunger is a kind of penality already. This 'idle' question is not simply black or white.
The centralization is a kind of determinated thing. Storehouse->school->quarries and still even the the inn will be very near to the storehouse becasuse the basic added ~150food to the storehouse(built the inn too far means waste of foodtransporting time.).
The centralization is an interesting question, but it is coming with the basic game. If somebody not close his storehouse or using the disable wares functions that will learn very soon what centralizations and traffic jams mean.
Managing Idle serfs could help more on the sneaky locations or the long distance locations also.( I mean on a kind of Highlndwood(sneaky) locations or Boarder Rivers locations 2(longdistance) type locs.) These locations biggest problem is the centralizated gamemechanics. Sneaky locations means almost everytime big traffic jams infront of the storehouse because the storehouse will be between 2 large objects(hills/ lakes) where are not too much space around and only one main road posible, this will predic trafficjams with high chance. (kind of actual example Iron and Gold loc 7, BitD loc 4,5 etc...) The long distance locations use to have problem with the storehouse which is located end of the road with the school and with the resturant(Boarder loc2,Tff loc 5 etc...). The long distance villages use to need more serfs because the transportation times are more longer than on a simple locations where the resources are on well counted places.
After end of the PT the players don't need as much laburers becuse then the fights get the most attention so only some building be built after PT(new coal mines, some more vineyards). But the idle abourers and serfs use to hang around the inn which use to be in middle of the village or around the barrack which is the most busy building after the PT.
I could imagine some 'IDLE' hanging points where the serfs and labourers could hang if they don't have jobs. Or one-one ralley point to the inns and for barrack.

As I wrote theare are practical solutions already, but those can not control Idle citizens who are really just blocking the whole village. Inn and barrack, these two buildings and their districs use to be very crowded withouth idle serfs also.
Selecing a roadtile or roadtiles or farmfields where these idle serfs can go and chill with reducing the mass in front of the main buildings.
70serfs are not too much but with this low number of citizens can make 7-9hangers in front of the barrack. The reality is nowadays the game went into the very well counted direction and still can happen these jams. Even if players think their villages are well planned.
The busy barrrack is not a huge problem if the barrack is hanging out from the village and there are lots of space around, but actualy tons of locations doesnt have this 'huge space' around, lots of locations are limitated and 'closed' so the mass will be around the main buildings(not only the barrack still the inn has similar problem). And still we can say, hm this village is working well but has a huge traffic jams around these. On these type of locatons the ralley point for the idle serfs could be a redemption. the players could send them near to farms or above the quarries where they would not hold up the real transportation.

Or still could imagine the idle serfs always would be looking jobs around in the city, they always would be walking somewhere not only hanging at a point and thinking on question marks...

So my opinion is this idle serfs managing coud be also a small thing which could help to balance the difference between the locations and could give more controls to the players and needs more discussions. Should not penalty the players because there are the centralized gamemechanic and some very busy buildings.

[Ben]

Thunder, you've been told a hundred times "no" on the two door barracks. Let it rest man! Also, you want oneroad to your barracks, not two (soldiers exit one side, serfs enter the other)

[thunder]

Thunder, you've been told a hundred times "no" on the two door barracks. Let it rest man! Also, you want oneroad to your barracks, not two (soldiers exit one side, serfs enter the other)

That was just a reminder there;) Anyway the backdoor doesn't need road because only soldier would come out who do not need roads. So the barrack main entrance would be avaiable for the citizens only. Anyway if the backside of the barrack is unwalkable then the main entry point could work.
Anyway my heart is very childish so I can listen the 'no' at 101times also

[Ben]

I feel the same about giving goods to your ally, so I don't blame you at all

Speaking of being told "no," Krom, I think you should take another look at citizen dismissal. An over abundance of citizens is indeed a "punishment" for excessive training. However, I believe this option should exist in the game. Citizens cost gold, and losing gold and the time taken to train a citizen (time can be a precious thing for many builds, especially after about the 15th minute) is cost enough. If a player doesn't get anything back from dismissal, let him do so. It opens up new strategies, which is needed in this liniar game. Besides, kam is a "nice" game. The brutal ways people kill off builders just isn't right

[thunder]

A kind of backdoor when the Monster troops equipped at the backside when walkable and when not walkable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGFCGky ... e=youtu.be

[Rey]

Idle serfs are very good "penalty" for over-training and centralizing town too much.

Indeed. That is a good thing to give a penalty for that. But now its even more then a penalty, but the end of the game for your city (Doom).

The main point: There is no way to comeback from it at any cost.

Even if you have lots of resources, best economy (unless the too many serfs, which were trained to help you), your enemy just waiting 1 hour and do nothing- still you can't do much about it. Best thing - may be destroy barracks and move them to other place. And still they will make traffic jams at the old barracks place.

F.e. if you lost all the serfs and laborers, except one last serf - there is a comeback mechanics, even if takes lots of time, but you can develop back. You have to close all the buildings, let serf bring gold chest and start producing serfs back. after 20 minutes you may be can get back to producing soldiers. It will cost you lots of gold chests and lots of time, but still possiblem at least in theory.

But for situation, when you overproduced serfs - there is anything you can do. You can't block them from going to the Inn, can't dismiss them - so there will an infinite traffic jam whatever you do. Especially if we take into account, that after limited resorces are depleted you will need even less serfs. They even will not die of hunger probably, if you have enought food.

So its Dead end for your city.

[thunder]

So its Dead end for your city.

Well, Im sure this could fill up a new topic. The traffic question and the unused citizens questions.
There are several type of situations.
-The base is rushed by enemy and left only some bows to clean up the serfs and citizns-> come back is not possible.
-After PT->less constructions -> more idle labourers and citizens
-End of mines resources-> more empty mines(and if a map is out of resources only tradings are the last chance)
-empty stone hills->idle stoners


etc...

Well this really could be a new topic.
I made a script which has two parts:

1st TD-Tower Destroyer- Every deleted tower gives around 5-6 goldchest. Most of the times the players skipping the towers, only walk across. no waste of time to destroying it. The reward would not change the game much more, still the main destiny is the barracks...

2nd LC-LAst Chance- it is what could help to make the comeback easier. If a player lost his barrack but the larger part the economy is still standing then deleting 1-10 buildings, get some troops and has larger chance to come back. This would work only if the player lost his barrack. So the player could create a little TH units army which could kill the left 4-5 bows or 1-2 knights. Actually deleting some of the already unused buildings in that case would be effective. (this script is not perfect yet, because had to use many tricks:S)
This could make interesting situtaions also because many times farmers can leave their house and only watching how the bowmans are shuting their village. So destroy the farm get a rebel and the group of bowman immediatly loose his huge control over the village because the rebel would arrive under the 4tile range and then this unit could kill many of the bowmans. Making this type of village ruch would be more riskier. Anyway the brake of this script is the barrack. No barrack no 'bonus' troops. So if somebody can make 80units until pt destroy his entire village then he gets another 40-50units which seems lot, but still can say rebuilding a complete village is harder than just let it be spamming more units. So I dont beive this script would help the rush players.

It is video about these scripts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X0YDYq ... e=youtu.be
//the sound is horrible, i had to remove it and filled up with some random youtube offeed one.....


//3rd which would be an idea only for rethink the townhall:
I know the Remake is based on the TSK and not the TPR so these ideas would not fit well in the REmake, but tell it to the fisherman and to the market and the TAX of the market Trolololo.

The Townhall really could be a place where the playera could make the unit transformations of course with cost of goldchest but with rethough price. It is almost similar than reeducate somebody. And the cost would be matched with the market prices so it would not be IMBA in the early game and even would not be IMBA in the lategame.
Some example:
-I have 20-22 labourers after PT and im sure wont use them anymore. Now easy to send them into a suicide action-It is ugly and not fit well into the survive and defend citizens style. BUT, with a new building which has the image. SoI would like to transform them to rebels. Then in the Townhall should select to train units 'from' 'to' (as in the market) and let train 20-22 from this. The cost could be hihger than the original price were in the TPR just because nobody wants to brake the KMR values and balance. The cost would be 4 goldchest per transformation in the rebel case(this value is based on the Market value where 1 lance =4goldchest +1recruit which was the labourer)
-Or I have some idle miners who are very strong after the lots of hard job. The mines are exhaust the players starting to trading the miners just hanging around the inn withouth job. New oportunity would be transform them to barbarian. 1 miner to 1 barbarian 18-19goldchest (2swords+1leather jacket- based on market prices- this sound is not really imba and fair enoguht o not abusing them but these units no hang more around the city)
-no more iron-> no more iron weapon production- >transform those house keepers to milities(4goldchests-based on market price)
-OR only simply i dont need the idle labourers so i want to transform them to serfs because trading horse from stones need +15-20serfs from well counted economy. LAst time tried to abuse this trade but i failed with my perfect economy
So yes the New type of Townhall would a Market kind of building a kind of mixed building of market and school. I have too much serfs and lost butchers then transform some to butchers.
Note. We already tested out and noticed the TH units from barrack are not IMBA with their price. So when would calculate the goldchest price to new TH than the market price could be fair to use it.

[Rey]

The Townhall really could be a place where the playera could make the unit transformations

Its almost the same as original Town hall, but with higher price. I believe it will be also reject for the same reasons - you can do monoresource economy, even if its not profitable, anyway its not fit into KaM multiresource scheme.
I think other solutions are better:
- dismiss serf/citizen in school (best solution by now IMHO)
- set serf rally point (not sure)

As many times said - KaM is 'nice' game, but we almost push player to kill labourers because no other options are available. Dismiss mutton fix this brutal 'problem' too.

Your other suggestions - 1st and 2nd, they are quite offtopic to the original problem with idling serfs next to barracks.

Its better to focus on 1 problem and try to find best solution, than spread into different and long threads which usually leads to nothing (unfortunally, but life is short )

[thunder]

Not really same. This Townhall would be based on the School. Because the player would be able only to reeducate(transform) the citizens. Simply training would not be possible. The school would be necesarry. The market needs other buildings also which producing wares(ok storehouse use to have some pre added wares) Anyway with that higher costs would not be IMBA.

Monoresource is a fiction. Goldchest is based on coal and gold ore and still need a complete foodproduction behind to be alltime workable mines. Abusing a wares is not effective. And coal and goldore is non-renewable.
The market prices are not effective either to use as abuse strategies and if the TH transformtions would have those prices for the cost then it would not be IMBA either. .(This is one of the reasons of the why the game doesn't have too much straegy ways topic.)
And there are many things which not calculated... training times, tranportation cost etc...
18-19goldchest for a single unittransformation would be a very high price. Still need a school and mass gold.
One Townhall would be enough if would have similar platform as the market has with the wares but it would have the citizen's icons.
18-19goldchest for a warriror tranformation...have you ever tried to trade stone to horse in the market?? Try it out and feel how is when a trading process need 2/3 part of your all serfs. I did and was wonder why not get the unitspam... (18-19 goldchest would need similar amount of serfs) This would be similar also.
Monoreource. Is there monoresource unit? If not counting with the recruits then there are many monoresource units:
-militie: used only wood.
-xbow/pike/swordman: used 'only' iron. non-renewable.

The Townhall is a building which has nice image and could give many new nice functions options to the game. After many real tests and tries I already say too the original way is IMBA, but there are many optional ways which could be a way to add it. The unittransformation is a political decicion which is well fit IMO for TH.
School educate, TH reeducate.

I think other solutions are better:
- dismiss serf/citizen in school (best solution by now IMHO)

If you mean call back them and change would be added to all type of citizens. (Sometimes randomly players train more stonecutters than would need.) To me the reeducate system sound is nice if its added to the school and not for the TH.

- set serf rally point (not sure)

IDLE serfs, labourers ralley point. IDLE and not only serfs but labourers miners etc...Because the inn and barrack is a kind of meetpoint. Like a party area...under a big war

[Rey]

Monoresource is a fiction.

May be. But the main thing is that @Krom does not think its a fiction And I partially agree with him.

We discussed some ideas about giving script makers more abilities to let making townhall with custom costs and availability for troops. So f.e. you can make a script where you can get TPR warriors for reqruit + lances/bows/swords etc, same as in your script. Or for reqruit + N gold chests, how some other players requested (@vovets + @andreus). Or even for farmer+skin+whatever you want. Here you will be able to retrain serf/labourer + some resource into some TPR warrior.

But this is optional script, I think idle serfs problem should be fixed in main game first.

And this new feature is in 'idea' stage. This means it may become implemented or may not.

[Esthlos]

- dismiss serf/citizen in school (best solution by now IMHO)

You could give idle civilians a button to morph into Recruits, of which one never has enough.
To make it meaningful, this should have a cost that balances out the advantage of removing idle civilians... either material (e.g. 1 gold) or practical (e.g. keeps the School busy longer than a Recruit would).

You could even add a "Training grounds" building whose only function is converting citizens into Recruits... it could have the same interface as the School, but clicking on the queue button actually calls in the closest civilian of that type to be retrained as a Recruit.

Personally I think that the "Training grounds" solution is the best, since it better fits KaM and is easier to use.
Sadly, it also looks like it would be more difficult to implement than the others...

[thunder]

Hi,
If somebody copy a link into the chat of the lobby, could that link transform an openable link?
Thank U!