Effect of heights on walking/building

[Lewin]

A long time ago (like 3-4 years) when the Remake was still in its infancy I measured the effect of land height on whether you could build and walk on tiles. I discovered that if the difference between any of the 4 vertices (corners) of a tile was greater than a certain value, you could not build/walk there. (with different values for building/walking) There's an except for one of the diagonals, but I won't bore you with the details.
The original values I measured were:
>=25: You can't walk/build roads
>=18: You can't build houses

More recently people have been complaining about iron mines that cannot be built because the ground is too steep. I thought "oh maybe I made mistakes in my old measurements" and I increased the tolerance to:
>=26: You can't walk/build roads
>=21: You can't build houses

A few days ago someone complained that you can't build on a mine in TSK 14, and when I tested I found this was the case: In the Remake you couldn't build the mine, in TPR you could. So I began to wonder, and decided to repeat the experiments in TPR to check the values I was using. The results I got were the same as my original results: 25 and 18. So I thought: well why can you build that mine in TPR but not the Remake? So I copied the exact height values from the tile that couldn't be built in the Remake into my test map, and I found that in TPR I couldn't build a house there! But I COULD build an iron mine there. After some more experiments I came up with the following values:
>=25: You can't walk/build roads
>=25: You can't build iron/gold mines
>=18: You can't build houses

So to match TPR I have changed it so iron/gold mines use the same value as for walking/roads, great!

HOWEVER we're still left in a tricky situation: Should I revert the other values (walk/roads and houses) to their original values, rather than the ones I increased them too when I assumed my experiments were wrong? To recap, the Remake uses:
>=26 for walk/roads/iron/gold mines
>=21 for other houses
and KaM TPR uses:
>=25 for walking/roads/iron/gold mines
>=18 for other houses

The change isn't large, but it can make a big difference. I found that using the KaM TPR values some fan made maps now have lots of tiles that can't be built on. Warfare in the Wilderness is especially bad. These can of course be fixed by the map authors. The good thing is we know that the original campaigns/maps won't have problems because they worked in TPR, so it's only fan-made multiplayer maps that will need checking.

So my question is: Should we revert the values to TPR levels (this will make more tiles that can't be built on) and get the map authors to check their maps and flatten areas that cause problems, or should we leave the values as is? (more tolerant that TPR) I'm inclined to revert it back so it's the same as TPR, because I think it's just part of KaM that you can't build/walk in certain places and I don't see why we should make the Remake more tolerant. I guess the counter argument is that it's just annoying when you can't build somewhere, although I would say that's a fault of the map not the game.
Please let me know your opinion.

By now you're probably thinking: "Wow Lewin has WAY too much time on his hands, who even cares?"

[Krom]

This is very detailed analysis

I would revert to 25-18 and ask mapmakers / testers to check the maps and fix them to comply with TPR standards.

[Piko]

I think it would be better if this values in next release wouldn't be changed. After change, in all maps relief have to be fixed.

[Krom]

@Piko: Not all maps, but only those that were made for Remake specifically and have a rough terrain.

Maybe we can make a small util to parse maps and output a minimap image with tiles that become impassable with reverting the heights effect? So to actually see the area of the issue. If there are just 1-2 maps or 100.

[Piko]

Maybe we can make a small util to parse maps and output a minimap image with tiles that become impassable with reverting the heights effect? So to actually see the area of the issue. If there are just 1-2 maps or 100.

I think this is good idea, but all time changing this values would make more problems than benfit.

[Shadaoe]

I think you should go for the TPR values, and you already wrote my argument :p

I'm inclined to revert it back so it's the same as TPR, because I think it's just part of KaM that you can't build/walk in certain places and I don't see why we should make the Remake more tolerant.

I totally agree on this !

By now you're probably thinking: "Wow Lewin has WAY too much time on his hands, who even cares?"

I believe it's quite an important thing to discuss ! Tweaking these values changes radically the way we play some maps.

[Thomas]

By now you're probably thinking: "Wow Lewin has WAY too much time on his hands, who even cares?"

I believe it's quite an important thing to discuss ! Tweaking these values changes radically the way we play some maps.

Fore sure it is! I also found out that some gold mines could not be build where I thought in TPR/TSK I could build one. Anyway I didn't had the time to post it yet. So, no time-wasting at all

And I also think you should go for the TPR values, even if that means to redo some maps (therefore that little tool would be very helpful).

[Lewin]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I've reverted it to TPR values
Don't get too worried about the effect this will have, it's really not that many tiles in most maps. In everybody's favourite map Golden Cliffs location 1 is the worst effected, and here's a before and after screenshot of the canBuild passability:

So in the worst case (the other locations had less spots like this) it's only 5 tiles or so in a screen. The map is still playable like this, you can always use the trick of building road on the tile to flatten it if you really want to build there. In fact I remember needing to use this quite often in the campaigns, so maps like this might not even need changing.
So yeah, it's not like the maps have to be "redone" or anything

During beta testing of the next release map authors can fix their maps if they think it's necessary. (contact me if you want to be put on the beta testing mailing list)
Cheers,
Lewin.
EDIT: P.S. Checkout the house shadow in the second image!

[Shadaoe]

Indeed it doesn't change that much things, better than I thought, so it's even better that you reverted to the TPR values :p

[HellRacer]

It's not so much of a difference.
And the shadow looks nice indeed!

[FeyBart]

And this is why I love KaM Remake so much. You guys put so much effort in so many details.

[The Dark Lord]

I think it was wise to revert it back to TPR levels. Of course I am willing to edit Warfare in the Wilderness to ensure it's playable.

[Lewin]

I think it was wise to revert it back to TPR levels. Of course I am willing to edit Warfare in the Wilderness to ensure it's playable.

You will need to, there are large areas that can't be built on within player's areas now. But in the next version you can use the KaM Remake editor without damaging the tile transition data stored by Krom's editor, so when the beta comes out you can fix it up. (or if you want to sooner I can send you a pre-beta version)

[The Dark Lord]

You will need to, there are large areas that can't be built on within player's areas now.

Yes, for the previous release I lowered the terrain just enough to make you able to walk and build again but it still had to look as rough as possible, so it was just on the border-line.

But in the next version you can use the KaM Remake editor without damaging the tile transition data stored by Krom's editor, so when the beta comes out you can fix it up. (or if you want to sooner I can send you a pre-beta version)

I already damaged it previous time. It is not really a problem because I don't think I'll ever change much on this map. And I still have an old version somewhere roaming in my KaM folder. I'll just wait for the beta version, I'm not in a hurry.