Introduce New Units without TownHall!! in New Kam Beta

[StefanTheGreat]

Peace in your souls!

* Sorry for my poor english! If you don't have time read only text with coloures!

I have a suggestion to introduce new units (or just 1 - warrior) in normal kam game without TownHall. Let Townhall just for players who want to play bonus games or put an option to disable/enable townhall in lobby.

I saw that you want to add this new units in new kam: warrior, barbarian, rougue, rebel and vagabond.
Problem is that if you will do townhall like is now will be disaster for new kam. I'm sure that most of players, that know a little how to play kam, don't like this new future beause is unbalance. You must do only spam gold, like in bonus games, and you will have a bigg army. For example I played yesterday a fast test on 3x and made an easy 370 gold in pt and in 1h,12 min of game I had 600 gold. So no stragtegy, you don't need too much brain to make this gold spam(I do than on 3x speed not 1,5x). I think this townhall will ruin kam game 100%.

Because of this units release from townhall more and more players will not come to play on new kam. Yesterday night we had bigg, bigg problems to find players who want to play, after 2 days with full lobbies. only ffa game with 5 players after hours of waiting.

Mos of us like this new features like:
- Woodcutters house Cutting point and new 'Plant Only' mode
- Ability to select ally's house/unit etc.
But very much players hate that townhall & troops released by this house (I'm one of them) because ruin game, is imba and is not natural.

So today a little idea come in my head.
Add new units in other way, in normal game. All units will be produced in normal way, like units are produced today, recruits + wapons & realease from castle.

But you must add some options in Wapons buildings.

For example:

• Warrior
Add in wapon smithy option to produce beside swords, cross, pike + iron axe for warrior that will cost for example 1 iron + 2/3 coal and +1 normal iron armour from armour smithy (or you can add an unique iron armour for warrior that will be 1/2 from normal iron armour or if you want to make worrior more strong 2x more effective than normal iron armour). 1 iron axe = 1 iron + 2 coal because is more power full than sword
So
1 worrior = 1 recruit + 1 iron axe + 1 armour and will be release from castle like is normal.




• Barbarian
for this will be produce in wapon smithy same iron axe but +1/2 leader armour and maked not so strong like warrior
1 barbarian = 1 recruit + 1 iron axe + 1/2 leader armour and less power that worrior because worrior have iron armour so it must be more powerful and will be release from castle like is normal.




• Rougue
Here I have 2 ideas:
1. Rogure can cost only 1 leather because he don't need bow;
2. Most natural - add new option on Armory workshop that make wapon for it like shields. So 1 wapon for rougue will cost 1 timber(if you want to make 1 rougue = 1 wapon from armoury + 1 leader armour)/2 timber (most natural 2 because 1 bow cost 2 timber, and difference between rougue and bowman is on armour) . So Armory workshop will can produce leader armour, shield and this wapon for rougue (name like you want).

1 rougue = 1 wapon produce by Armory workshop with 2 timbers + recruit //or// 1 leather armour + 1 recruit and will be release from castle like is normal.





• Rebel
Same story like rougue but my idea is to introduce in this case an new item production on Weapons Workshop so 1 Weapons workshop can produce ax, bow, spear and fork that will cost 1/2 timber (I think 1 better and make less strong than millitia or 2 and = with millitia).

• 1 Rebel = 1 fork + 1 recruit and will be release from castle like is normal.





• Vagabond
(Yesterday night 1 vagabond kill 1 of my knights ) )
Because don't have shield I propose this:
1 vagabond = 1 recruit + 1 horse + 1 wood axe and will be release from castle like is normal.



Benefits from this ideas:
1. Imba wapons from castle will be use to release this new units (for example, I have extra axes and 5 horses but no scouts or wapons for knight and I need a scout or some cavalery to kill bows in battle, I will release fast this vagabondes to use them);
2. All units will be release in natural mode;
3. Players will not consider them imba units like now and hate them;
4. Players will love to use this, will create new strategies that will include this units;
5. Game will me more complex that is now;
6. Game will become more popular;
7. Old inactive players will come back and play new Kam happy.


In this mode you can make strategies and normal Kam game will not suffer, players will be happy and use new units clever and (trust me) all will want to play new Kam in this mode.

!!! All new units will be introduce in natural mode in game, in logical structure of the city. !!!
No noobyy spam! Only Brain!

And finally, you can let that thown hall for bonus games, where players are addicted to spam troops, no fancy strategy, only produce as much as you can.

Or

you can use at Command Center, where you can command to servs for example to eat only 1 type of food when he go to inn or command to all woodcutters to plant only with 1 button or to all woocutters to cut trees because you need fast wood or to farmers only cut corn because you need fast horses/piggs or food breads or to see your statistics from your town like you see after game. I think is more natural in this whay that you add spam gold to release troops from there.

Thanks for patience to read this long text and I hope that you will use my ideas to make a new kam a better game!

I strong belive that townhall from now will ruin new kam, a new kame that have 6v6 option that i love it , and more players will play only old kam.



* My first post on this forum. In 4-5 years I don't use it too much because of this black/grey background. I can't read too much because, in less time, my eyes are very, very tired, just because of this black background. After I read here 200-300 words my eyes are hurt. I must rest 30 min after i read a simple text?!. Most of time I must copy text on notpad to read it.

[Frogimen]

I also think that it would be best to allow host to decide if townhall should be avaible or not.

We all need to remmember, not everybody plays 60pt, some play 70, 90 or 120. If we balance the game around 60, casual games will just die, we aren't that big community, we need to think of other players. Townhall spam is unbelievable op at this moment, mostly because of those 2 units Barbarian/Warrior - just because it is the most powerfull unit in the game and even knights can't handle them and rouge, as it is in practice, they are as powerfull as bowman and cost just 2 gold, it is insane how easy it is to spam them, on average 60 pt game you make around 40/40, with the use of 3-4 mints you can get around 150 rouges on 60 pt, now take that to 70,90,120 games, it will kill the game.

I propose that there people should be able to build maximum 2 town halls, housing max 6 gold chests and nerfing rouge price to 3.
This, or that units in town hall still need weapons, but no armor
> rebel - lance + 1 gold OR stay with 2 gold
> militia - axe + 1 gold OR stay with 2 gold
> rouge - bow + 2 gold, shot with speed of xbow
> vagabond - same as militia + horse (meybe also unlock him in castle?)
> barbarian/warrior gets doubleaxe for: 2 iron + 1 coal OR 1 iron + 1 coal + 1 wood axe AND cost 4 or 5 gold then.

Because it might be a problem to store weapons in 2 different palces, I propose for all weapons to be stored in the castle, when using Townhall, a unit with sprite of recrut would come out and go to the castle to get the needed weapons, units would not be able to be bought if there wouldnt be sufficient weapons.

In retrospect, we should start with catapults and balista, since they are already balanced in that they are slow, very expensive and especially catapults, can do friendly fire.

About other changes, I just wish for button to spam to wake people up in lobby

[Tomixx]

if townhall will be changed... i want change archers they need nerf because people make 40-50 after 60pt

[Frogimen]

if townhall will be changed... i want change archers they need nerf because people make 40-50 after 60pt

Yes. Archers should ALLWAYS die in 1 hit from mele atacks.

[LadyPauline]

Its reasonable to make those changes, far more acceptable than TownHall system which is pretty much broken.
If TH units must be added to the game pleaaaaase make it with brain. For now it looks like barbarian is most valuable unit because its cost is not bigger than swordman. I cant imagine our future games with teamplays like 3x barb + bow and 1 knight rush for mobility. Without making castle we can make over 80 barbs bcs we spend our wood only on gold production. But ofc its not uber good without range support. So the best build will be mix of barbs and bows. I played few games on this build, its faster and cheaper than any 'normal' build. And stronger I think. Tell me guyz is there any way to beat 55 barb 40 bows with our classic build? Probably if you r very good player, have some knights. But 55 barb and 40 bow is easy for every kid to make. Like REALLY! Imo its stronger than sword/bow build.
So maybe just delate all iron from all maps bcs it will be useless. Only imagine how much work you need to make all those smiths to make swords, and farms for horses, and wooden production for bows.... Compare it with 3x gold 2x wood for 1 bow maker, and that's all you need to beat every build in game. 3 farms will give 40 leather armor. Easy fast cheap. GAME IS BROKEN

[vovets1]

That idea to put TH units in classical KaM producing mechanics is very very old.
Here is some problems:

1). Very difficult to draw all the sprites for them, because only for serf you need at least 64 tiles for each weapon.
2). Very difficult to balance if something will go wrong (and it will). E.g. it's obvious that vagabond in this model is very weak, because he has low fighting characteristics, the same speed, but still requiers a horse. And you are able to have armor set, when the first horse appears, so you'll make knight ofc.

Golden TH easily come over with these problems. One of the main reasons why TH wasn't implemented earlier is that barbs were really OP before 5503 in fighting statistics. But after 5503 we've got buff for shieldmen and bows, and then barbs become more simple to be beaten.

I have some questions for Lady as well. When you did 55+40, which map did you use (how many goilden mines did you use, maybe not 1 TH but even 2 or more, etc), and which is more important, did you use market for trading something for gold?
Also, your numbers looks not convincing. Are you sure that 3 farms, 1 bow maker, etc, will be enough for 60 pt to create such an army? These numbers look a little bit (not really a little bit) compromised.

P.S. As far as i know, open tests began not so long ago, so it's only beginning. A lot can be changed, but devs need replays from players, especially replays of normal PvP games. I know that there is some technical issues, hope they will be done soon. We should thank devs that they did this version, because we finally can check all our theories about golden TH and its power, which were collecting till 5-6 years or even more.

[thunder]

1). Very difficult to draw all the sprites for them, because only for serf you need at least 64 tiles for each weapon.

Half of them is ready. And not so hard to recreate serfs who are carrying thee weapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsuEO5V1z4Y
Fork is ready.
Barb axe iss on half way.
Does the sling is really necesarry or can be the same as bow?

2). Very difficult to balance if something will go wrong (and it will). E.g. it's obvious that vagabond in this model is very weak, because he has low fighting characteristics, the same speed, but still requiers a horse. And you are able to have armor set, when the first horse appears, so you'll make knight ofc.

Disagree. Easier to adjust this to the regular troops. as TH units are shieldless units with similar strenght to the regulard barrack units. For example rebel can have same attack power as lance but without shield point and the cost would be 1 lance and recruit. I know this ws dicussed and even scripted and it much balanced than gold.

I have some questions for Lady as well. When you did 55+40, which map did you use (how many goilden mines did you use, maybe not 1 TH but even 2 or more, etc), and which is more important, did you use market for trading something for gold?
Also, your numbers looks not convincing. Are you sure that 3 farms, 1 bow maker, etc, will be enough for 60 pt to create such an army? These numbers look a little bit (not really a little bit) compromised.

I've seen this game and I have to say, that was IMBA even for 60minute games too. Map was cube with 60min. Lady build 5 metallurgist and 1 barrack for bows. get more than 350goldchest.
Anyway it is a total normal thing. For example I played on golden cliffs with slow start or buildorder and got the same but I prepared 9metallurgist and 2th, and got spam 500goldchest per 10minutes.
And now I have plan for 11metallurgist which can work continously.

We should thank devs that they did this version

Agree, as many times written huge and good steps for developing extending the game.

because we finally can check all our theories about golden TH and its power

The TH implementation was discussed many times here on the forum, even was tested with dynamic scripts and it was evident after those what will happen in the actual releas. I was wishing TH also, but had to understand what changes will come with it...after have seen it started to support TH on different way.
I totally disagree to add TH to MP game on the current way. even worse than bonus script(not about the code,about the idea). I would leave the TH as scripting possibility. If somebody wants a map with TH than script it. (not on reverse way.)

The siege would be better choice implementing it frst before TH. That would not break balance.

[LadyPauline]

The best answer for you Vovets will be replay of my first barb game in the beta.
I send you Rar file with my Save. Its played on the Cube map which have some additional resources at beginning but it really makes slight difference. gold is really far and I was creating my town 'blind' I used all mines possible and used one market for trading bows for gold and shields for gold ore. (I could have around 60 bows but I traded some, so its pretty obvious that 1 weapon maker is able to make 40) just watch it carefully and you will see.

I played 2 more barb games. so even with less gold spots for goldmines we r able to use even 3 markets for trading weapons/iron ore/some food for gold ore and gold chests. with this my pt was 72 barb only with no bows.

Its just making town for gold rush only. you can have 45 servs and have insane pt. Unfortune that my 72 barb save is broken in 7th minute of replay :/

Watch this one and say what you think. As you can see i killed 2 players with one army. Twas noobish game but players r experienced as i am.




P.S. This replay is also broken(Max wanted spec so we voted after I killed his army, it caused the bug probably) but I killed Max (Jon snow) and Stefan with this one army. They can tell You

[vovets1]

The best answer for you Vovets will be replay of my first barb game in the beta.
I send you Rar file with my Save. Its played on the Cube map which have some additional resources at beginning but it really makes slight difference. gold is really far and I was creating my town 'blind' I used all mines possible and used one market for trading bows for gold and shields for gold ore. (I could have around 60 bows but I traded some, so its pretty obvious that 1 weapon maker is able to make 40) just watch it carefully and you will see.

I played 2 more barb games. so even with less gold spots for goldmines we r able to use even 3 markets for trading weapons/iron ore/some food for gold ore and gold chests. with this my pt was 72 barb only with no bows.

Its just making town for gold rush only. you can have 45 servs and have insane pt. Unfortune that my 72 barb save is broken in 7th minute of replay :/

Watch this one and say what you think. As you can see i killed 2 players with one army. Twas noobish game but players r experienced as i am.




P.S. This replay is also broken(Max wanted spec so we voted after I killed his army, it caused the bug probably) but I killed Max (Jon snow) and Stefan with this one army. They can tell You

Ok, i'll check in it Wednesday when i will be able to use PC. But as i understood from your explanations and some other replays too, the only TH is not that bad, but in combination with market it starts to be imba.

None wants to make simple strategies efficient, ofc. I thought that with TH players will use all producing branches, and barbs will be only a good addition as flank fighters. I this that we should put them into this role. So, some ways exists, but i'll write them at least when i have watched replay you sent.

[LadyPauline]

Market makes everything easier, can improve every build.
Townhall itself is bad, there are few reasons.
First thing is that it takes our main resource. Rest reasons are connected to the first All units are too paper to even think about using them as the real soldiers while All castle units can tank more bcs of the armor they all have, so we rather spent 1 gold on recruit to train anything from castle than from TH. (I see only 1 reason which can be used but about it later.) Straight to the Core... barbs cost a lot of gold but they r the best damage dealers in entire game so if anyone think about Townhall.. its bcs of them. You said Flank Fighters? Nonono! Not barbs. They are real Butchers so if They will appear in the game, they will be The Core!
Now the 1 reason TH can be good. All rest units can be used as flankers. I used to call such things as skirmishers. They block, take attention and annoy enemies, deal small damage but if they go on backs they can be a threat for bows for example. Or they can catch bigger regiment of enemies to turn them in their direction.
So if you have 5,10 gold in the TH you can use it for training thrash fast. 2x mounted or 10x spear. When i think about it i highly doubt that in a long term this Construction have any sense. If it exists, its called Barbarian.

Maybe if they will be nerfed equally into swordman damage. But its still powerful. Idk, think about it

[vovets1]

Market makes everything easier, can improve every build.
Townhall itself is bad, there are few reasons.
First thing is that it takes our main resource. Rest reasons are connected to the first All units are too paper to even think about using them as the real soldiers while All castle units can tank more bcs of the armor they all have, so we rather spent 1 gold on recruit to train anything from castle than from TH. (I see only 1 reason which can be used but about it later.) Straight to the Core... barbs cost a lot of gold but they r the best damage dealers in entire game so if anyone think about Townhall.. its bcs of them. You said Flank Fighters? Nonono! Not barbs. They are real Butchers so if They will appear in the game, they will be The Core!
Now the 1 reason TH can be good. All rest units can be used as flankers. I used to call such things as skirmishers. They block, take attention and annoy enemies, deal small damage but if they go on backs they can be a threat for bows for example. Or they can catch bigger regiment of enemies to turn them in their direction.
So if you have 5,10 gold in the TH you can use it for training thrash fast. 2x mounted or 10x spear. When i think about it i highly doubt that in a long term this Construction have any sense. If it exists, its called Barbarian.

Maybe if they will be nerfed equally into swordman damage. But its still powerful. Idk, think about it

Market improoves all strategies, but in this case it improoves it too much. That situation is like in 4001 with trade coal to tree trunk 1:1, which was extremely efficient. So if devs will increase gold ore and gold cost in market, that can save the situation. I bet that you can't use barbs as main units with 3 gold mine spots and without market. So the problem is exactly in market. I suppose there will be no problem with trading something for gold when natural gold will be over, because by that moment player will have developed economy, and easily trade something for gold and golden ore.
Both damage/hp nerf or increasing the cost isn't good ideas, because in this case we confirm that TH is only usable with market, and without it units are bad.

As for all non-barbs units, there we shouldn't forget that 60 pt is not only mode in our game, so all these units can be used in early game. Now we have militia domination till 35 min, so there's no point to play with less pt. That is at least boring, because from 10 to 35 minute we have only militias, and TH can really improove those game modes. This is one more reason why changing costs or characteristics is not good decision.
But you are really big fan on 60, TH has barbs for you, and sometimes maybe vagabonds and rebels. So, here is compromice.

[LadyPauline]

Market improoves all strategies, but in this case it improoves it too much. That situation is like in 4001 with trade coal to tree trunk 1:1, which was extremely efficient. So if devs will increase gold ore and gold cost in market, that can save the situation. I bet that you can't use barbs as main units with 3 gold mine spots and without market. So the problem is exactly in market. I suppose there will be no problem with trading something for gold when natural gold will be over, because by that moment player will have developed economy, and easily trade something for gold and golden ore.
Both damage/hp nerf or increasing the cost isn't good ideas, because in this case we confirm that TH is only usable with market, and without it units are bad.

As for all non-barbs units, there we shouldn't forget that 60 pt is not only mode in our game, so all these units can be used in early game. Now we have militia domination till 35 min, so there's no point to play with less pt. That is at least boring, because from 10 to 35 minute we have only militias, and TH can really improove those game modes. This is one more reason why changing costs or characteristics is not good decision.
But you are really big fan on 60, TH has barbs for you, and sometimes maybe vagabonds and rebels. So, here is compromice.

Thanks for answering Vovets. You seem to be reasonable guy. So you rather will change market prices than make changes which stefan introduced above? I just want to know which option for you is more worth considering.
My opinion about this situation is clear and im up for making changes similar to Stefans ideas.
When gold ore and gold chests will be too high to consider making typical BarbBuild (with using market) then 60 pt players will just play Normal/Old mode. So still TH will be usefull probably more on long pt bonuses or like you mentioned, short pt games. I admit that low pt games lack of something bcs of this 'militia-only' thing.
For now i think prices in market were good and balanced. Players probably will be disappointed when cost of gold will grow. Ofc those r my thought and i can be wrong. Such controversy around this TH its ridiculous

So Stefan showed us simple project which looks soooooo Natural compared to the GOLDsucker TH. I look forward for what will come next, and what our little devs will decide.
Maybe some query about it? Lets see what Comunity think about both ideas.

[vovets1]

Thanks for answering Vovets. You seem to be reasonable guy. So you rather will change market prices than make changes which stefan introduced above? I just want to know which option for you is more worth considering.
My opinion about this situation is clear and im up for making changes similar to Stefans ideas.
When gold ore and gold chests will be too high to consider making typical BarbBuild (with using market) then 60 pt players will just play Normal/Old mode. So still TH will be usefull probably more on long pt bonuses or like you mentioned, short pt games. I admit that low pt games lack of something bcs of this 'militia-only' thing.
For now i think prices in market were good and balanced. Players probably will be disappointed when cost of gold will grow. Ofc those r my thought and i can be wrong. Such controversy around this TH its ridiculous

So Stefan showed us simple project which looks soooooo Natural compared to the GOLDsucker TH. I look forward for what will come next, and what our little devs will decide.
Maybe some query about it? Lets see what Comunity think about both ideas.

For me TH which uses gold matches better for some reasons.
1). Easier to balance. If rogue can be still useful in Stefan's variant, here's big problem with vagabond. It steps on the same rake as scout (who is completely useless in 6720), because it requires a very expencive resource - horse, but has even less impact than scout. So, if vaga is out if game, rebel is out either, probably may appear in late game as a replacement to spears.
2). Doesn't require extra drawing
3). That adds the third branch of equipment your army, so combining three branches (iron, leather and gold) is more interesting than only two.
By the way, there is important purpose during implementing TH - put it in that way, when TH abusement isn't benefit as like as ignoring TH at all. E.g i played without market on map with 4 iron mines, i got 15 knights, 30 barbs and 35 leathers. Here's the combination.

And yes, i am sure that without market abuses TH can be nice addition to current strategies.

[thunder]

1.It steps on the same rake as scout

I think to this is questionable, as the scout is requires leather too, and this is and the built up strategy makes scouts a bit out of the game. And still if somebody has a horse automatically train better quality troop which is knight.
Anyway the vagabond is very good choice and a kind of easy spammable unit. From barrack from townhall also. As I see vagabond is always part of the TH games as it was predicted earlier. Very cheap for fast vision. I'm sure vagabond will be much more trained unit as scout in the future.
Poor scouts...

Easier to balance.

There are several ways of course, but hard to find a widely accepted way to release it.

And yes, i am sure that without market abuses TH can be nice addition to current strategies.

Agree, a bit better without market. But there is a little problem with this. My favourite most liked addition to the game: The Market itself

2). Doesn't require extra drawing

Do you mean on these type of?

3_0070.png

3_5559.png

[JulianSnow2]

Big fan of this idea ! Train vagabonds/roque's etc like normal units

My suggestions for this idea:

1) Rename the Rebel.
thinking as ourselfs being a king with a city to rule, and an army to train. Who'd train 'rebels' ? Those are mostly fighters with an instable loyalty (just like militia, but I mostly just disable militia from my maps). I'd rather call them 'Farmers' (for what they are, more or less).

2) Rename the Rogue.
as stated above, Rogue is a name given to villians, rascals and other scumbags. Not really a name you'd give a part of your army. I'd rather call them 'Slingers' (for the sling shots they wield). ((btw, i'm pro-training roque's from 1 recruit + 1 leather armour))

3) Rename the Iron Axe
I wouldn't name the big axe "Iron Axe" because that would suggest that the regular axe from the axe fighter is not made from iron ... I would name it a "Two handed Axe", but that's just my opinion.

4) Differentiate Barbarians from Warriors through Stats.
I'd also suggest that the "Barbarian" stays the superior unit (these savages can't be matched in strenght). My idea is to increase the barbarian to 80 attack power (+5) and decrease the warrior to 65 (-10). The warrior is compensated with an iron armour, so his defence stats should be increased from 1 -> 2 (just like the pikemen). Making the warior a slightly more expensive unit than the swordfighter, but also slightly more effective.

5) Training savages is like taming a balrog
I think it's weird to train a 'barbarian' because those aren't specific fighters (in real life), It's more like you are a barbarian(or wildling) or you're not. That's where the townhall would do more justice to 'hire' these savages (in game maybe at a higher cost than it was in TPR, or maybe different costs (i.e. 5 gold + some iron bars or whatever, or leave them out at all).


No offense intended, just blurting out my thoughts on this idea


Edit: Have read all the previous comments, I think training the units like normal would be a better option. No specific reason, it just feels better to train them instead of popping them out of gold chests.