Scripting demo release candidate

[Jeronimo]

This is more a balance request: Vineyards

They currently need 9 wine fields. The total timber cost for setting 1 vineyard matches (1 farm/1 mill/1 bakery).
Besides in the food competition, vineyard gives 1 barrel each 50 secs (30% cond), while bakery 2 breads each 38 secs (40%x2= 80%!).

I tested basebuilds with vineyards, but there is no success in big bases (100 serfs)... you need 3 complete vineyards (39 timber) to equal 1 bakery (12 timber).
Besides with "Tiles Occupation" fore both food chains is equal-> same total tiles space to be placed.

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The first balance change for Vineyards was positive (11 wine fields reduced to 9, and more condition from 20% to 30%).

I think it should be improved through the same solution with wine fields... 9 reduced to 6
The aside effect of faster wine growth is earlier recollection, but overall speed will continue as slow as now... 1 wine x minute.
Saving tile space/timber is the key for its success in food competition.

This suggestion is not exageration... in competitive big bases, wine barrel are currently NOT an option (100 serfs).
Imagine how 30% dissaper instantly from Inn, as a candy... which forces a player to build around 4-6 vineyards to have a decent wine barrel production.
Lots of timber also mean less weapons, risky food is not safe: Everyone knows this.

I hope these true arguments are enough to buff this yet... unconvinient building.

[The Dark Lord]

Hmm I'm not so sure.

Let me first correct you on a few aspects. Bakers may produce 2 breads every 38 seconds, but only if they have a constant supply of flour. And the only way to have a constant supply of flour, is having a mill that gets a constant supply of corn (or filthy market trades), and you won't have that with just one farm. So your analysis of the costs is wrong.
Also, farms take way more space than vineyards. This does not affect costs directly, but it means you can build a lot less of them.
I don't think wine should become just as good as bread. It doesn't make sense if your whole village runs on wine only. Wine is a nice addition to bread and sausages, but I think it's good that 'mass vineyards' is no viable strategy.

And one more thing: if you manage to have some wine in your storehouse, you could easily feed some soldiers, giving you a massive advantage over enemies that can't feed their troops.

[Lewin]

I agree with TDL. Wine is also useful to compliment bread/sausages/fish, so you citizens eat 2 types of food and become more full. If they just eat bread they'll gain +40%, but if they eat bread and wine they'll gain +70%, which will mean they have to eat less often (less wasted time and less supply chain interruptions and unoccupied watch towers)
I don't think wine is intended to be an adequate food source for your entire village, but it's a great way to compliment bread/fish/sausages.

[Ben]

Yep, Yep, TDL and Lewin have good points. Another benefit of going to the Inn less often is less crowding in your city, which makes it even more efficient.

[dicsoupcan]

I agree, the vineyard should have the worst output and in my opinion it is not very expensive to make if you spread the costs over time. when i make a vineyard i only make 2 tiles at the same time so it does not cost me much wood over time. while wine is not a great addition by itself, but every wine you make saves another sausage because the villager who does not get one fed will take the wine and you will not see him for 15 minutes. I do not want to change anything, but if it would then other food should be worse, not wine being better.

[The Dark Lord]

One more thing I just thought of: vineyards produce food much quicker when you first set them up. When the farmer is harvesting the grapes, it doesn't require two more buildings to make food out of it. So it makes sense that farms are slower, but are more efficient.

[Jeronimo]

Maybe I wasn't very understood (my intentions). All things said above I agree with them.

Making the building run with 6-7 winefields, doesn't break any of the features Vineyard provides... and enchances them a little (faster ready wines) which doesnt mean more production in the long run, just a +2 wine barrels at beggining (because of the lapsus between "new" and "current" ready to harvest time).

This change would't outproduce bread production (the still real king of mass food).

Another argument is comparing 1 vineyard to 1 fisher.
Vineyard makes 2 wine barrels in 2 minutes, while fisher captures 2 fishes in same time: we see 30x2=60% vs 50x2=100% food gathering.
Vineyard costed 13 timber/3 stones, while the fisher 4 timber/3 stones... Now it's clear why of the "fish abuse" better complement than wine barrels.

It's more attractive a vineyard working with 6-7 fields than 9.
Dark Lord mentions bases based in vineyards would be "wrong", well I see Fishers base much more unpleaseant.
The only guy I saw trying mass vineyards was DamianPLyoutube long ago in Valley of Dangers 2 map.

Wine will be always a complement, but I think about making it appear to compete even with presence of lots of fishes at PT.
Is not an uneccessary whim of mine, but a critical analysis about this building still requiring 1 last small improvement.

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Apart topic... I'd like to see the "Border Rivers 8p f11" which I don't remember who balanced, doing a great job on this old map.
I still see in Remake 5116 that old fashionable version with bad locs.
And what happened to "Across the Desert v4.0" rebalanced by To himself?
Come on! KaM still needs a Map Cleaning, but most rebalanced maps weren't added.

[sado1]

Once I did ~8 wineyards (and 3 inns) on Cursed Ravine xD I don't deny that it was stupid but really a pleasure to watch

It was Thunder who made the improved version of Border Rivers. I think that it should be included, but To's Across probably not as many people voiced their concerns about it.

[Bence791]

Jero, don't be like that about fishes, they run out, wine doesn't
I think this "11 to 9" buff was already nice, it spares you 2 timber, which is 1 militia actually For example if you don't have much food left, you can set up 3-4 vineyards which keep your city alive until you build more farms to get either bread or sausages (or both). You can always go mass wine but that is not that good, for example if you go mass sausages you can benefit more from it 'cause you get 2 leather at the same time as 3 sausages, and they are the best food (sausages). This is why massive sausages are the best choice and always will be.

Offtopic: Jero, that guy was michalptyoutube, DamianPL never had that tag in his name I think. And I do remember a game with him as well (and I think he had like 4-5 vineyards in that game), in which Szwarc84 builderrushed you like hell

[Jeronimo]

Problem lies in the city size people... When referring to 100 or more serfs... vineyards come to obsolete due their extensive tile occupation, expensive set up, and mainly their poor production -> you need no less than 6 vineyards which is also a lot of timber/tiles occupation.

All tactics should be viable, yet a player's INN will surely have bread or sausage as main food.

At the moment I find bread+sausage good enough as to never consider vineyards.
Sausage+wine is not convenient based on vineyards inferiority (in many aspects) respect 1 bakery.

Suggestion: Reducing 9 wine fields to 6 (or 7) would be enough.
Vineyards will always complement other foods, even after this change.

Approve this in the name of large KaM populations.

[Ben]

I suppose that it could be tested... wine isn't used a lot in high competitive play, so perhaps we could lower it to 7 or something for testing, but I honestly don't think that it's worth the effort (or that it is needed!).

[Jeronimo]

I suppose that it could be tested... wine isn't used a lot in high competitive play, so perhaps we could lower it to 7 or something for testing, but I honestly don't think that it's worth the effort (or that it is needed!).

It will be nice to test it!! I acknowlegde as well vineyards are never built as 2nd food choice (but 3rd or 4th).
The amount of them should be +6 at least to match up with 2-3 bakeries (Condition restoration).
-2 or -3 timber x vineyard is worth the change to see more diverse Basebuilds in future.

[thunder]

Hey!
Now i didnt have lot time to check the bug list so possible some sharp eyes player already seen it.
-Some snowy building need new animation also because the animation has some part of the old house also.
Sawmill, Leather armory. I dont check the other.

And i think somehow need to rethink the snowy buildings in the game, because sometimes annoying. Snowy building only on the mass snow or only snow or iced terrian.
Graphically amazing and i know it is hard job(i did also some own building), but some spring areas with one or two tile snow and the watch tower has mass snow on the roof or three snowy farms are next together and the centre farm is in the summer.
I like this function just sometimes too much. I know it s part of a graphically renewing and hard to decide how should to work this function.
For example, i miss the snowy coalmines.(or possible are there more buildings also?) The locations have more snowy areas then grass or murds...on Dead of winter. i think on that map for example good if the whole buildings are snowy, because feeling of the locations are COLD or Frozen. Ok some maps have crazy colors where hard to find a good solutions to this problem.
I think maybe a third type of building (medium snowy) solve this large visibility difference between the snowy and no snowy buildings.
Huge workm and i think need to see more test city how does it look out.
But the way good!
t

[Ben]

I don't have a problem with buildings being snowy and not snowy mixed together: We already have maps with several different climates.

Having maps were the entire cities are covered by default is interesting, but that still conflicts with multi-climate maps.

[sado1]

I need to say that the I don't like the way snow appears on buildings. It needs to be blurred or something, Also, the percentage of snowy tiles under the building should be higher. Or maybe even, the percentage of tiles around the building should matter as well - after all, it's these tiles that we see, and who cares when under the building there's snow, if around it there's a lot of grass.

But I love snowy buildings anyway For me they could stand even on grass, but I have to agree that it's a bit inconsistent sometimes.