Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

[Krom]

ZOC is an interesting concept and I'm looking forward to testing it, but it poses some issues on compact maps:
- ZOC are computed based on players influence, let's say 15 tiles around each house (except Towers). Now take Valley Of Dangers - First one to build coal mine next to neighbors entrance effectively blocks opponent from getting access to the valley. How do we solve that? I don't know.

Increased Towers spacing - maybe, lets hear more opinions on it.

Mirroring houses entrance - out of question. Houses lighting and shadows are valid only in one case. Many houses are symmetrical as well.

[The Dark Lord]

Why not Krom? It looks great:

[Krom]

@TDL: Just looking at this pic hurts my eyes ..

[Da Revolution]

Pro editing skills

[Nissarin]

ZOC is an interesting concept and I'm looking forward to testing it, but it poses some issues on compact maps:
- ZOC are computed based on players influence, let's say 15 tiles around each house (except Towers). Now take Valley Of Dangers - First one to build coal mine next to neighbors entrance effectively blocks opponent from getting access to the valley. How do we solve that? I don't know.

I looked at the map in the editor - if this map is meant to be played east vs west then the map is "broken" as it is, because you can "block" the coal field by just placing your mines there. With PT=0 you can destroy those (which is what probably the author had in mind) but ZOC doesn't change that - no building - no ZOC. Also ZOC is not meant to be static, it's size is affected by other buildings, so if someone places a building that is 16 tiles from your building, the ZOC for those two is limited to 8 and you can still make your next building next to the "border". Also mentioned before, ZOC is "emitted" by finished buildings, so if both players placed their mines in the "no man's land" there will be allowed to finish those.
However if you are still concerned about it, then it's possible to add an option (brush) to the editor allowing to disable ZOC in specific area, I'm not sure if it's possible to implement without breaking anything (I don't know the map format, however only one bit is what's needed).

Mirroring houses entrance - out of question. Houses lighting and shadows are valid only in one case. Many houses are symmetrical as well.

So basically, a shadow is "part" of the building, correct ?

PS:
No TDL, that's not flipping right/left but I'm sure you get there.

[The Dark Lord]

Just couldn't resist.
But yeah I understand and I agree with Krom, it won't look good.

[Shadaoe]

I looked at the map in the editor - if this map is meant to be played east vs west then the map is "broken" as it is, because you can "block" the coal field by just placing your mines there. With PT=0 you can destroy those (which is what probably the author had in mind) but ZOC doesn't change that - no building - no ZOC. Also ZOC is not meant to be static, it's size is affected by other buildings, so if someone places a building that is 16 tiles from your building, the ZOC for those two is limited to 8 and you can still make your next building next to the "border". Also mentioned before, ZOC is "emitted" by finished buildings, so if both players placed their mines in the "no man's land" there will be allowed to finish those.

Broken ?
It is fine to play it right vs left as it is now, because you're normally able to destroy those blueprints if a troll fills the coal field. It might be a problem but if you play with people who don't troll, you're fine.

I'm not sure about this ZOC idea, I can't imagine how it would affect the gameplay without playing the game with this feature, maybe it could work well, but it should be an option on the lobbies then I guess.

TDL : you troll ! :p

[Nissarin]

Broken ?

No, "broken", there is a difference

It is fine to play it right vs left as it is now, because you're normally able to destroy those blueprints if a troll fills the coal field. It might be a problem but if you play with people who don't troll, you're fine.

And that's why I think ZOC wouldn't pose much problem, you have to finish your building first. And if you "rush" your coal mines there you will fall behind, same goes for tower rush, ultimately the player who is closer (i.e. will build faster) will have the advantage, so you can't abuse ZOC to gain advantage, at least not that easly.

[Shadaoe]

Coal rush in the valley is a quite used tactic here, and if the first to build coal can prevent the other to do so (if I understood correctly), then i won't be playable the way it is meant to be.

No, "broken", there is a difference

Don't worry, I understood you didn't want to be mean :p

[Nissarin]

Coal rush in the valley is a quite used tactic here, and if the first to build coal can prevent the other to do so (if I understood correctly), then i won't be playable the way it is meant to be.

But normally you would have to destroy those mines in order to build yours and that would also remove the ZOC, correct ? Well, I think the only way to make sure it would work as expected is to test it on a living organism

Perhaps I might make some "example" screen shots later but my skill in that matter are on par with TDL so..

[Shadaoe]

I already saw two enemies players building mines on the same coal field in the valley, with towers around, so it's not obliged to destroy the enemy's coal mines to build yours, but as you said, it'd be better to see it in action

[Siegfried]

Also mentioned before, ZOC is "emitted" by finished buildings, so if both players placed their mines in the "no man's land" there will be allowed to finish those.

So if Player A finishes his mine first, does this destroy the construction site of player B? How would you ensure the 'minimum distance' between two buildings in that case?
You can even push this scenario further: what happenes if for some reason one road tile was not finished (because the laborer was killed or starved or there was one of the famous lags that make you planning skip one tile), the opponent finishes his building - and you have no chance of connecting your building to the road then. Is this the intended behaviour?

The ZOC is per se a good idea as it's implemented in the Civ games, but the situation is a bit different in KaM as you have those mobile troops and much more tiles to sit on.
I think the problem with the laborer-planting-fields can be solved with the simple implementation of a field-destroyer in the way, that your own laborer has to work there, dig a bit, and the field then vanishes (so you can't just destroy the fields inside enemy towns without moving your laborers there).

[Nissarin]

So if Player A finishes his mine first, does this destroy the construction site of player B?

No, you will be allowed to finish everything started before ZOC "kicks in".

How would you ensure the 'minimum distance' between two buildings in that case?

The ZOC will simply overlap, which means neither of the players would be able to build anything within DMZ

You can even push this scenario further: what happenes if for some reason one road tile was not finished (because the laborer was killed or starved or there was one of the famous lags that make you planning skip one tile), the opponent finishes his building - and you have no chance of connecting your building to the road then. Is this the intended behaviour?

This might be tricky. But I guess the answer is yes, this is intended behavior, if we allow to connect the building with road afterwards then the whole idea (partially) falls apart, because you can just place a few towers and then connect it with road later on. The only exception might be the overlapping area, it should be possible to build roads there.

The ZOC is per se a good idea as it's implemented in the Civ games, but the situation is a bit different in KaM as you have those mobile troops and much more tiles to sit on.
I think the problem with the laborer-planting-fields can be solved with the simple implementation of a field-destroyer in the way, that your own laborer has to work there, dig a bit, and the field then vanishes (so you can't just destroy the fields inside enemy towns without moving your laborers there).

Everyone makes mistakes so many players want that kind of function but personally I think it doesn't fit KaM, correctly planning/building your city is one of the means to achieve victory. Also, even if this function will be available it shouldn't be "free", so it either have to take more time (compared to build time) or require some sort of resources (which one ?). There are other problems as well, if you have vision of your opponents town what will prevent you from abusing this function ? Also, assuming you can remove fields, how does that exactly help you ? As you can see in the screenshot one player was able to mess with all of us, if we had to spend even more time removing the damage we would fall even further behind. And it doesn't really solve the problem if the enemy uses the road/wine (he might wait there for ages) or just some buildings, you are still screwed.

[dicsoupcan]

Also mentioned before, ZOC is "emitted" by finished buildings, so if both players placed their mines in the "no man's land" there will be allowed to finish those.

I think the problem with the laborer-planting-fields can be solved with the simple implementation of a field-destroyer in the way, that your own laborer has to work there, dig a bit, and the field then vanishes (so you can't just destroy the fields inside enemy towns without moving your laborers there).

but that gives trolls the ability to remove fields in your allied towns, because their builders can just walk there and destroy the fields.

[Siegfried]

Well, if it's just meant as a defense agains trolls, than we can have this much, much cheaper.

The game won't be much fun with the trolls inside. So it makes no big difference whether this person is there or not. So implement a kick-voting like all Ego-Shooters have nowadays. Give people the chance to invoke 2 kickvotings per game to prevent abuse and make it so that 75% (or 2/3 or whatever) of the players will have to agree.

It will be very difficult to try to develop a system that cannot be abused, because once it is there, people, who really want to, will find a way to abuse it. So maybe it's really the best to just remove those people from the match.