Speeding up the early game

[FeyBart]

(...)
Save your breath complainers, and obey the right attitude towards improved tech-tree.

I'm glad you leave quite some room for people who disagree with your opinion, and that you have such an open mind...

I do agree, though. This will probably decrease unnecessary game time.

[sado1]

I'm not yet against or supporting the change, I'm open for a discussion, but since when the changes first get implemented, then we discuss them? You might say that they can always be reverted if we together decide so, but it really feels wrong. This is a much game-changing idea, after all.

[Krom]

@sado1: The change has been proposed by me almost a year ago. If RC shows that this is a bad change we will revert it in public release. That is one of the reasons we do testing before releases

[The Dark Lord]

Does anyone knows other RTS games where at mission start there was only one option to build? And only one option after that? And only two after that? And only one after? And only one after? And only then there was multi-choice. I'm not kidding: School>Inn>Quarry>Tower/Woodcutters>Sawmill> ...

KaM is not like a standard RTS game where you wait to have enough resources and just click on a building and place it somewhere on the map.

What fun is in building same houses in the same pattern all over again .. IMO variety of tactics should be presented earlier in the game. That's why unlocking few more houses early.

I haven't heard anyone complaining about variety in early game.

Save your breath complainers, and obey the right attitude towards improved tech-tree.

You'd better show the right attitude towards a healthy discussion; I really dislike the tone in your message.

@sado1: The change has been proposed by me almost a year ago. If RC shows that this is a bad change we will revert it in public release. That is one of the reasons we do testing before releases

And how would it show that it is 'a bad change', since all it is supposed to do is speeding up the game unnecessarily?

To all: as far as I know, 1-2 people wanted to have this implemented and it got implemented without further questions or discussion; there is no reason to speed the game up because there is enough to do, map makers can decide themselves if they want to unlock these buildings or not, and that statement about improved balance is just not true, especially when it comes down to single player missions.
To me it seems that KaM Remake is more and more becoming a KaM Mod. I love fixes, but this is just a good example of 'lets change it because we can'.

[Krom]

KaM is not like a standard RTS game where you wait to have enough resources and just click on a building and place it somewhere on the map.

My example with building order is not about resources supply. It's about choices you can make in early game. Would you go for supply depots or barracks, or maybe some bunkers, or refinery? (e.g. Starcraft). In KaM however you locked to one true order, which is very straightforward and repeats from map to map. Thanks to aware mapmakers some maps have more houses preplaced or unlocked to allow to skip the boring phase. Once again, this is not about resources supply. This is about being able to play RTS game, not a "rinse and repeat"for the first 10-13min.

I haven't heard anyone complaining about variety in early game.

Count me in, I'm complaining. Count in guys from this topic. Some more from kamclub.ru (http://kamclub.ru/forum/19-734-1). Not many complained about missing snow houses, yet KillingB paints them because he thinks they are good addition/change.

And how would it show that it is 'a bad change', since all it is supposed to do is speeding up the game unnecessarily?

I'm sorry .. ? Receiving constructive feedback about a change is a measure how good or how bad it is. If we get tons of "Game runs too fast, I cant pick what to build, stone or wood, help!!!11" replies, then its obvious the change has made the game too intense and ppl just can't catch up with it. (f.e. if we make a change that requires player to manually control ALL serfs, that would be obviously bad change and we will get constructive feedback very quickly and clearly).

To all: as far as I know, 1-2 people wanted to have this implemented and it got implemented without further questions or discussion; there is no reason to speed the game up because there is enough to do, map makers can decide themselves if they want to unlock these buildings or not, and that statement about improved balance is just not true, especially when it comes down to single player missions.

See earlier, that's more than 2 ppl and we got some amount of feedback and constructive advice on it.
Please describe what is it enough to do in a game for the first 10-13 minutes. If possible with different strategies. You start with a Store, 3 serfs and 3 workers.
Houses are unlocked the same way as before, just earlier. If some house is blocked it will remain blocked. No change here. Mapmakers are in control. I'm not aware, are there any specific maps that really rely on classic unlocking order? So that if player builds a Woodcutters before Quarry the mission story breaks? (town tutorial barely fits, but which else?)

To me it seems that KaM Remake is more and more becoming a KaM Mod. I love fixes, but this is just a good example of 'lets change it because we can'.

We are trying hard to balance here. If what you said was true, then imagine the game would be spammed with ALL suggestions that were posted in past 4 years. If we didn't add anything - see original game 1280x1024 on FullHD screen - not a pleasant sight I'd expect. Does scripting counts as mod? Yep, a lot. And yet it is a great addition that expands the possibilities without breaking anything (you can still play without it). So I do agree, KaM is catching up with time, it gets more modern in looks and feels, yet all the classic is there in it.

[Ben]

AGGGHHRRG! I keep going back and fourth. The Dark Lord gives some good points, and I say "Yeah, he's right!" But then Krom comes in and gives good points, too. Now I'm thinking that Krom is right... I'm seriously more confused then ever on what I want.

Usually, I start thinking that this is a good change and that everyone should be able to adjust to it. However, I then remember that mapmakers can unlock these buildings from the start anyway. Why not let the map-maker have the choice in this matter? Also, having to build the Inn slows down rushes, so a map-maker can still give high resources to maps that he doesn't want huge rushes to take place in.

I really don't know. Perhaps it is best to just leave it like it was before? I mean, at least there was a choice back then. Now we have no choice.

[Lewin]

I completely agree with Krom's last post. When I'm playing I find the first 10 minutes very slow and uninteresting compared to the rest of the game, after you build the sawmill all hell breaks loose while you try to get gold, farms and iron at the same time. I often find myself checking emails while the school/inn are being built, because there's really not much to do, which is in stark contrast with the rest of the game where I'm busy 100% of the time.

As for implementing stuff before asking for the community's permission (just kidding ), we often do this if Krom and I agree on something. There's always time to change it back, especially with changes like this that take 2 seconds to make.

@Ben: The map maker CAN'T make it the way Krom has implemented it now. All the map maker can do is release the woodcutter and stonemason right at the start. The way it is now it the stonemason and woodcutter are released by the school, so it's quite different (you can't build stonemason/woodcutter at the start). The map maker still has this choice of releasing the woodcutter/stonemason right at the start (before the school) if you want an accelerated start on your map, so I don't think that's a problem.

It also adds more variety, pro players can decide on the best time to build their inn, and you no longer have to sit around while the inn is building with nothing to do.

[The Dark Lord]

Please describe what is it enough to do in a game for the first 10-13 minutes. If possible with different strategies. You start with a Store, 3 serfs and 3 workers.
Houses are unlocked the same way as before, just earlier. If some house is blocked it will remain blocked. No change here. Mapmakers are in control. I'm not aware, are there any specific maps that really rely on classic unlocking order? So that if player builds a Woodcutters before Quarry the mission story breaks? (town tutorial barely fits, but which else?)

There's loads of builder-micro to do. Planning the location of your buildings in your head, making the roads towards them already, cancelling roads and making them again so labourers that are closer can go to these instead of labourers that are far away, make sure your serfs are bringing stone to roads in construction when the inn is about to be finished, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. When it comes to 'different strategies', obviously you have to make a school, an inn, a quarry, a woodcutter and a sawmill; but your strategy should kick in much earlier and it all depends on your location on the map and starting resources. Is gold far away? Maybe you should start building a road towards it very quickly and build woodcutters along the way. Maybe I want a very fast woodcutter and thus a very fast sawmill and I'll build only one quarry and build the woodcutter/sawmill very close to my storehouse so they are finished much quicker. Maybe I want my first woodcutter in an open space so trees can be planted there and I need a long road for that?
When the woodcutter/quarry gets unlocked, you should already have the roads towards the location where you want to place the building. And you do that while building materials are being brought to the inn or the inn is under construction.
So yeah, no reason to 'wait' in my opinion.
Also, the reason single player missions might get unbalanced is because this will also speed up the way players build in single player, whereas the AI gets no bonus at all. In other words, missions will be a bit easier.

If what you said was true, then imagine the game would be spammed with ALL suggestions that were posted in past 4 years. If we didn't add anything - see original game 1280x1024 on FullHD screen - not a pleasant sight I'd expect.

This is a crooked comparison; changing the resolution doesn't affect the game mechanics. And for my statement to be true, it is not required that all suggestions got implemented.

So I do agree, KaM is catching up with time, it gets more modern in looks and feels, yet all the classic is there in it.

Yeah and I really love some of the changes, although I disagree that 'all the classic' is still in it, the marketplace obviously being the biggest abomination within the Remake.

I completely agree with Krom's last post. When I'm playing I find the first 10 minutes very slow and uninteresting compared to the rest of the game, after you build the sawmill all hell breaks loose while you try to get gold, farms and iron at the same time. I often find myself checking emails while the school/inn are being built, because there's really not much to do, which is in stark contrast with the rest of the game where I'm busy 100% of the time.

Well this will just cause hell to break loose earlier, because you will try to get gold, farms and iron at the same time but only quicker than before.



Again: there is enough to do in the beginning but I agree you have a lot more to do when your sawmill is finished.

Oh by the way, I forgot about this: people have been asking for 'F8' to be working in multiplayer as well; Wouldn't this make everyone happy as it doesn't require a faulty tech tree?

[FeyBart]

(...)
To me it seems that KaM Remake is more and more becoming a KaM Mod. I love fixes, but this is just a good example of 'lets change it because we can'.

I disagree. These changes don't speed up the game unnecessarily, they actually fix the unnecessary slow unlocking in the original. As long as it doesn't have any disadvantages in gameplay or balance, what does it matter? It might make the game more interesting, and doesn't change the gameplay, so I don't see a problem.

The example you give about waiting 'till the counter goes up to a certain number, clicking an icon, and a building will appear, is IMO wrong. KaM is about realism in these things. They have builders and serfs because the creators felt resources had to be moved around, and buildings had to be constructed. The unlocking is just a way of guiding the player, saying: "Hey, you should first build this, you don't need the other thing yet". This proposal improves the order of unlocking, without effecting the realism. That's why I feel your example didn't quite show the right side.

(...)
There's loads of builder-micro to do. Planning the location of your buildings in your head, making the roads towards them already, cancelling roads and making them again so labourers that are closer can go to these instead of labourers that are far away, make sure your serfs are bringing stone to roads in construction when the inn is about to be finished, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. When it comes to 'different strategies', obviously you have to make a school, an inn, a quarry, a woodcutter and a sawmill; but your strategy should kick in much earlier and it all depends on your location on the map and starting resources. Is gold far away? Maybe you should start building a road towards it very quickly and build woodcutters along the way. Maybe I want a very fast woodcutter and thus a very fast sawmill and I'll build only one quarry and build the woodcutter/sawmill very close to my storehouse so they are finished much quicker. Maybe I want my first woodcutter in an open space so trees can be planted there and I need a long road for that?
When the woodcutter/quarry gets unlocked, you should already have the roads towards the location where you want to place the building. And you do that while building materials are being brought to the inn or the inn is under construction.
So yeah, no reason to 'wait' in my opinion.
Also, the reason single player missions might get unbalanced is because this will also speed up the way players build in single player, whereas the AI gets no bonus at all. In other words, missions will be a bit easier.
(...)

This is for multiplayer, when you have quick thinking to do. In singleplayer, people have loads of time. They don't need to think panicly. Besides, sure. It might not be very necessary. But why aren't you going to give the players the choice? Maybe they'd like to do it the same order as it's presented in now, or they could go and build the (by then) newly unlocked buildings earlier. What would it matter?

(...)
Yeah and I really love some of the changes, although I disagree that 'all the classic' is still in it, the marketplace obviously being the biggest abomination within the Remake.
(...)

The marketplace doesn't take any of "the classic" away. It only adds features, and doesn't take them out. And I know it's meant as a joke, but even with the tonguey face, I still don't think that "obviously the biggest abomination" is a usable argument. It kinda sounds a tad bit arrogant, doesn't it?

Apart from all that, Krom's pretty much covered my opinion.

[The Dark Lord]

But why aren't you going to give the players the choice? Maybe they'd like to do it the same order as it's presented in now, or they could go and build the (by then) newly unlocked buildings earlier. What would it matter?

A lot. You will lose precious time, which other players spend on buildings that actually produce something and thus bring them forward.

The marketplace doesn't take any of "the classic" away. It only adds features, and doesn't take them out. And I know it's meant as a joke, but even with the tonguey face, I still don't think that "obviously the biggest abomination" is a usable argument. It kinda sounds a tad bit arrogant, doesn't it?

That's your interpretation, it wasn't meant that way.
Also, an example is not necessarily an argument, let alone a usable argument.

[Ben]

@Ben: The map maker CAN'T make it the way Krom has implemented it now. All the map maker can do is release the woodcutter and stonemason right at the start. The way it is now it the stonemason and woodcutter are released by the school, so it's quite different (you can't build stonemason/woodcutter at the start). The map maker still has this choice of releasing the woodcutter/stonemason right at the start (before the school) if you want an accelerated start on your map, so I don't think that's a problem.

I realize this, but the effect is close to the same. At least it is something. With this update, nothing will be up for choice.

Besides, there is still plenty of things to do while building the inn, such as conversation with your friends... I love that convo time.

[Lewin]

Oh by the way, I forgot about this: people have been asking for 'F8' to be working in multiplayer as well; Wouldn't this make everyone happy as it doesn't require a faulty tech tree?

I don't see what's faulty about the new tech tree. And yes we've made it so you can set the game speed (PT and after PT separately) in the lobby, obviously F8 during the game won't work because everyone would have to agree on it.

Well this will just cause hell to break loose earlier, because you will try to get gold, farms and iron at the same time but only quicker than before.

Well I thought this change would make the "busyness" level more smooth, rather than jumping from "very bored" while waiting for the school/inn to "uber busy" once the sawmill is done.

I realize this, but the effect is close to the same. At least it is something. With this update, nothing will be up for choice.

I don't understand what you are saying. Why will nothing be up for choice? In this update the map makers can choose to have the woodcutter/quarry allowed at the start or let the players wait until after they are unlocked normally (after the school).

[Ben]

I realize this, but the effect is close to the same. At least it is something. With this update, nothing will be up for choice.

I don't understand what you are saying. Why will nothing be up for choice? In this update the map makers can choose to have the woodcutter/quarry allowed at the start or let the players wait until after they are unlocked normally (after the school).

Okay, I'll try to explain again, then. In the classic tech-tree, mapmakers had the choice of letting players skip the inn by having the woodcutter, quarry, etc. be unlocked at the start. Now, that choice is no longer given to mapmakers: The inn can never be forced unto the initial setup of the village. I understand the the new tech-tree is slightly different than having pre-unlocked buildings in that the school must first be built, but I find that to be a small gain for such a big change. For the most part, this new feature could already be accomplished before.

So, to answer your question: Map makers now no longer have the choice of making players build an early inn.

[Jeronimo]

We agree in general that is good to slightly speed up the initial game's phase.
I would to hear opinions from complainers respect this:

*Krom's way: Storehouse enables Inn+School / School enables Quarry+Woodcutter.
It's the fastest proposal, but to compare I'll remember mine below which speed is "average" in comparison.

*Jeronimo's way: Storehouse enables School / School enables Inn+Quarry.
This chain only allows Quarry, but not fast Woodcutter (anyway you need to build at least 2 quarries, even if you have woodcutters unlocked).
My proposal maybe is more attractive for mapmakers who still can speed their maps enabling woodcutters/farms.

Do we prefer option K or J?
For me any is fine, just want to skip Inn in every map.

[Ben]

We agree in general that is good to slightly speed up the initial game's phase.
I would to hear opinions from complainers respect this:

*Krom's way: Storehouse enables Inn+School / School enables Quarry+Woodcutter.
It's the fastest proposal, but to compare I'll remember mine below which speed is "average" in comparison.

*Jeronimo's way: Storehouse enables School / School enables Inn+Quarry.
This chain only allows Quarry, but not fast Woodcutter (anyway you need to build at least 2 quarries, even if you have woodcutters unlocked).
My proposal maybe is more attractive for mapmakers who still can speed their maps enabling woodcutters/farms.

Do we prefer option K or J?
For me any is fine, just want to skip Inn in every map.

K or J? Not much of a choice. What about TDL? because that's where I am standing.