Proportional weapons production

[Siegfried]

So you see what is happening here: 1 is a single function, but 2 is a combination of 2 functions.

That sounds abstract, but that really is the reason why the new ordering function is better.

Try to imagine the opposite case for each ordering system:

When you want the old system to make an excess of axes, you have to increase the order, wait until it's finished, increase it again and so on. It's clicking over and over again.

In the new system, you only need to click one time. But if want to have a small amount of lances and a large amount of axes, you only have to go through the procedure once. Order the small amount of everything, wait until it's finished and then order the excess amount.

So if you imagine that both strategies exist, it's easier if the new ordering system is implemented. Much less clicking (and failing because you forgot) is the result.

[sado1]

That's right Sieg, but instead of implementing the new system to make much more axes, for example if you have 5 wooden weaponmakers, you can just make axes with 4 buildings and bows with just 1 (or even a half of a building). And it's an easy solution, since you just have to click and forget, and you have to have at least a few weaponmakers anyway. I think it also partially answers Krom's question about ordering shields and armors.

Also, Sieg, there's a problem with "order the small amount and wait until it's finished" - I think everyone would prefer to set the order only once, because it would be too much micro which is unnecessary here. It would be very easy to forget, especially now we're all accustomed to setting the order only once for the entire game. And having a varied army, doesn't seem to be enough of a benefit, if the alternative is forgetting to order making weapons at all...

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

I always thought it would be a great idea to get a message if your weapon workshops or amory workshops are idle.. Of course this could be an option for anyone who wishes, not mandatory.

[Nissarin]

I've another suggestion - instead of two modes (sequential/proportional), add another button* next to amount which would essentially mean "give priority to this item", which means it would be made before everything else (if you select two items they would be made sequentially). Overall it might require a bit more space but I think it solves the problem better, e.g. having an order for 50 xbows, 20 pikes and 5 swords - give priority to the swords, after they get finished, xbows and pikes would be made according to "proportional formula".


* Two state button (pressed/depressed), something like exclamation mark, even if works essentially like a check box I think it's more intuitive that way.


BTW: I think I missed that in this wall of text but do you want to make it work globally (yay) or per building ?

I always thought it would be a great idea to get a message if your weapon workshops or amory workshops are idle.. Of course this could be an option for anyone who wishes, not mandatory.

Actually I think that some kind of semitransparent bubble message above unoccupied/depleted building would be nice..

[Lewin]

I've another suggestion - instead of two modes (sequential/proportional), add another button* next to amount which would essentially mean "give priority to this item", which means it would be made before everything else (if you select two items they would be made sequentially). Overall it might require a bit more space but I think it solves the problem better, e.g. having an order for 50 xbows, 20 pikes and 5 swords - give priority to the swords, after they get finished, xbows and pikes would be made according to "proportional formula".


* Two state button (pressed/depressed), something like exclamation mark, even if works essentially like a check box I think it's more intuitive that way. \

That idea would probably work well, but the interface would not be intuitive. I think a new player would be completely confused by an interface like that. An option to change between sequential and proportional could be made to be much more intuitive IMO.

[Krom]

Sequential, okay, but you should convince us it is more natural and more handy. On first part proportional wins, on second par - equal score.. which one to choose?

Poll: How many workshops and armories do you guys build?
Question: With sequential order picking, how do you manage armor workshop and order shields (30) and armors (100) ?

I don't understand this part of your post; which is unfortunate because I'm very interested in your thoughts on this subject. Could you please explain it again?

I was trying to make a point, that micro-managing every single one workshop like TDL describes sounds like a labor for nothing if you have 2-3 workshops and can easily set one for 100 axes and other two for "50 of each weapon".

Second point is about armory, where usually you need 50 shields and 100 armors to outfit a decent army (cos every troop kind needs a n armor, but only axemen/cavalry need shields). In this situation proportional picking is ultimate, cos you can set 50 shields and 100 armors and every given time you get 1 shiel + 2 armors can fit one axeman and e.g. bowman. Unlike sequential production, where you would get 1 shield + 1 armor. So my question is, what power does sequential picking has in armories? Because it looks like it has only weakness there

[The Dark Lord]

I already explained it. In my opinion it is the other way around: the new system requires much more micro-management. People seem to assume that once you have made some weapons of different types, it is time to spam 1000000 weapons of one type. But in a dynamic game after peace time, I often find myself wanting more sword fighters, because all my melee died but I still have loads of ranged units, or I find myself wanting pikemen, because the enemy made some knights. If I have 500 iron armour in production, it would be quite some work to let that smithy make shields as well. With the current system it would be one click.
And for me it's even worse with leather, because at the moment I tend to make archers only so I only add leather jerkins to the production queue. But if I decide that I need axe fighters as well, I'd have to empty the que or at least click a lot of times to have the carpenter make as many shields as leather jerkins.
Not even mentioning that, all in all, the newly proposed system might be confusing for players, who have been used to the classic system for so long.
I still think a checkbox would be best. It's not like the two checkboxes for the woodcutter made the game extremely complex, did they? Remake's UI is far from becoming like Krom's bus or Lewin's aeroplane. In fact, the menus are still the same; it's just the weapon producing buildings that get an addition.
And what about my scrolling proposal? Wouldn't that work?

[Krom]

@TDL: You did not commented on my point in previous post. Please tell how do you manage several workshops and armories?

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

I agree with TDL on the checkbox option. I think you should let players decide whether or not to use this new system.

[FeyBart]

Yeah. I don't see a reason why not to. It's not too cluttered yet, and there's something to say for both options. Once the old system becomes really obsolete, you can always delete it by then.

[The Dark Lord]

@TDL: You did not commented on my point in previous post. Please tell how do you manage several workshops and armories?

- My weapon smithies produce crossbows; if I need swords or pikes, I add some and if the need is real high I could delete the crossbows from the queue.
- My armour smithies produce iron armour; if I need some shields, I simply add some.
- All of my weapon workshop produces axes and bows at the same time. If my production of bows outruns my production of leather harnesses, I set one or two of them to produce axes only.
- All armory workshops produce leather harnesses only, until I need some axe fighters.

There is a reason why I give all smithies/workshops the same job: one of them might get less resources than the others due to being further away or not having enough resources. This way I still get the right amounts and do not end up with 12 iron armour and 8 iron shields.

Now it's your turn, because you didn't comment on my whole post.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

There's enough room in the 'options' screen. It doesn't have to be set during a game. You could just configure it in advance, like sound or language.

[Krom]

@TDL: You described how well your play-style fits with the sequential system, that revealed something, I'm going to expand it a little bit: it looks like you operate with the orders like we all do with citizens in School. You set up initial ratio you need (all for bows and all for axes 1:1) and then you need to place priority orders time by time (+shields or +pikes and sometimes -bows).

Let me try to describe what could be an improvement over both systems, a combination of sort:
- What if we add a global ratio selector to ratios menu, where you pick ratios you need. So that if you select bows+axes all the shops would produce them without orders, constantly. And in shops you could set an override (order 10 shields to be made asap, or freeze bows)
- Another possible approach is use pure ratios in workshops, e.g. numbers from 0 to 5 that control how many items a shop will do

I'm so against sequential system in its current form, because it is very counter-intuitive. Even if it's good and used, it needs to be reworked into a more clear system, if we keep it and allow to select over proportional.

@FeyBart: Mind you, each time we change something we get someone complaining and argumenting to revert it back ))))

@Tom: When we add an option we say that we don't know and pass on the decision on the player. Does the player needs extra decisions that we could not make? Language, Autosave, Graphics - these are usual items because assume player knows better than us. Player needs these items. But we don't want to add options like "max laborers per house" or "warriors health regeneration pace" or "autosave name format" because they require special knowledge and/or are superfluous. So let's try to pick a good solution to the weapons production and implement it in a way that is meaningful and useful.

[Nissarin]

@Lewin
That's what tool tips, tutorials, etc. are for.

@Krom
I suggested the global production ratio before but if I remember correctly Lewin was against it Though I still think it's the best solution..

[The Dark Lord]

Let me try to describe what could be an improvement over both systems, a combination of sort:
- What if we add a global ratio selector to ratios menu, where you pick ratios you need. So that if you select bows+axes all the shops would produce them without orders, constantly. And in shops you could set an override (order 10 shields to be made asap, or freeze bows)
- Another possible approach is use pure ratios in workshops, e.g. numbers from 0 to 5 that control how many items a shop will do

First option sounds great to me. But this would require 4 additional menus, right (2 for the smithies, 2 for the workshops)?