Scripting demo release candidate

[Pizzaisgood]

I think those certain maps have to be rebalanced even if we just have the stonemasonunlock after school ( because you are not building your inn woodcutters will still come faster which results in greater amounts of early trees -> less early woodproblems -> less dificulty -> need for rebalance ) , so in my oppinion it could also stay with the stonemason/woodcutter-unlock after school.
I would say , If you want to speed up the earlygame like this then do the big step so no other steps will follow. Like this the mapmakers will only have to change their maps once . With the small step ( only stonemason after school ) complains about the earlygame being to uninteresting might come again and then the mapmakers have to change their maps again.
I just want to have the right balance back in those maps , so either go for the old build-order ( the obviously more unlikely possibility ) or make the stonemason/woodcutter-unlock so that after rebalancing those maps the mapmakers dont have to worry about having to rebalance their map again because of the changing of the buildorder.

The idea of the stonemason-unlock was to make the balancing a bit easier, but it also takes a part of the wished speeded up earlygame away in comparison to the stonemason-woodcutter-unlock. So i think there should be this one harder rebalancing of the maps with having the full result of speeding up the game with fast stonemasons and woodcutters after school.

Good bye old-school building. I liked you very much .


Btw you already have some approaches for fixing the range-unit-problem? I think the cooldown-timer-for-attacks-idea which i posted in my first post might be one good approach, because it allows full controll of the units and fixes the shoot and halt abuse.

[Ben]

Just out of interest, would everybody be happy if we kept the inn/school unlocking at the start but made the woodcutter unlock after the stonemason? (Jeronimo's suggestion) My biggest complaint about the game speed is the inn/school, the stonemasons/woodcutters are less of a problem to me (although I still think it's better to unlock them both at the same time). That should mean all the issues with wood go away, because the only difference is that you can skip the inn until a bit later (or let the serfs deliver to it while the school is being built:

I'm really torn between what I want in the game, and what I think should be in the game. In consideration of this debate, I find that the advocates of the quick start have a good argument; almost convincing me, but then I always remember this:

Bringing variation to early game? I'd say: choose a map with woodcutter unlocked (To's maps for example) or make your own.

However... maybe this isn't good anyway. I suppose that mapmakers have the choice of not giving the players starting food. The game would still be possible, but just not fun. Maybe for the sake of the game, this feature should be allowed (or at least just having the stonemason unlocked at start). I suppose that maps like golden cliffs could have a few less starting trees/timber to preserve difficulty.

Btw you already have some approaches for fixing the range-unit-problem? I think the cooldown-timer-for-attacks-idea which i posted in my first post might be one good approach, because it allows full controll of the units and fixes the shoot and halt abuse.

The new ranged-unit mechanics are terrible. It feels so wrong to see my units not respond; it's almost like programmed latency. Pizza's suggestion here is a very good way of fixing this qwerk and still keeping the intended purpose.

[Siegfried]

@Siegfried: You can't be serious about endless discussing about the 2 extremes orders: old slow, or new fast.
This Issue should be sorted out ASAP, so we move into new discussion such as Market new values.

Nah, don't misread me. Of course there is no sense if people stay in their extremes just shouting their opinion and not responding to others. You see, people came here crying "unlocking is teh ev1l!", but soon had to realize, that there are acutally some points supporting it.

So those who did not move and respond to those points basically just get ignored. You don't find people answering their posts now.

But some really do join the discussions, stating their argument. And you see, that they get a response.

Atm I see Lewin bringing up a very good point that completely convinces me:

1. The entire game takes too long (1 hour build your village to see it destroyed in 10 minutes), speeding up peacetime improves this

That's exactly what my experience as a casual player is. I often refrain from joining a game because I see that I only have one free hour and it's not possible to finish a building game in this time. The speedup helps, but still every single minute counts, so I agree on that.

What I see from the "the game gets easier"-post is, that it just affects some maps, not the whole game. So it's a problem of those maps, but this can be fixed by the mapmakers. They already did this when the new feeding time came up and they either way have to do it because of the improved farms. So the effort they have to make is already there. They will also find solutions to increase map difficulty.

[dicsoupcan]

@Siegfried: You can't be serious about endless discussing about the 2 extremes orders: old slow, or new fast.
This Issue should be sorted out ASAP, so we move into new discussion such as Market new values.

Nah, don't misread me. Of course there is no sense if people stay in their extremes just shouting their opinion and not responding to others. You see, people came here crying "unlocking is teh ev1l!", but soon had to realize, that there are acutally some points supporting it.

So those who did not move and respond to those points basically just get ignored. You don't find people answering their posts now.

But some really do join the discussions, stating their argument. And you see, that they get a response.

Atm I see Lewin bringing up a very good point that completely convinces me:

1. The entire game takes too long (1 hour build your village to see it destroyed in 10 minutes), speeding up peacetime improves this

That's exactly what my experience as a casual player is. I often refrain from joining a game because I see that I only have one free hour and it's not possible to finish a building game in this time. The speedup helps, but still every single minute counts, so I agree on that.

What I see from the "the game gets easier"-post is, that it just affects some maps, not the whole game. So it's a problem of those maps, but this can be fixed by the mapmakers. They already did this when the new feeding time came up and they either way have to do it because of the improved farms. So the effort they have to make is already there. They will also find solutions to increase map difficulty.

I do agree that this new unlock is better for speeding up the game, but i also agree that the more hardcore players want a challenge in their building fase. that is why i suggested a classic building unlock mutator for the nostalgia fans and the hardcore players, this way both casual and hardcore can be happy. If you rebalance maps again casual players might run out of wood because they did not pay enough attention to it, wich slows the game down again because they have to wait for wood and start camping more. But if we stay at the new unlock only i shall adapt and hope that maps shall be rebalanced.

[Mulberry]

Anti, I know where does your post come from, but Mully didn't mean that forums are useless. Some things are just easier to SPEAK about. I found it out during the great balance flamewars (very long time ago), that if we joined IRC chat and discussed about the balance in real time, we actually had a nice, polite, constructive discussion. It turned out to be the same on Teamspeak (and that natural thing, which speaking is, makes it even more nice). Much easier to understand someone else's way of thinking, while in a continous conversation. Forums are the kind of 'slow communication', which isn't a bad thing (they just play another role, forums are not Teamspeak...), but, let's say, the "bandwidth" that you can send information with, is much much better on TS. If there's a new page full of walls of text on forums, you might be too bored to actually read it.

Yes, of course, sado. We could save a lot of time by having several discussion on TS. We didn't because of someone being unreasonable and unresponsible. You know sado, that all 30-40 testers were using TS almost always.

As I said in the RC email, we would like to receive feedback through the forum. This means the feedback is recorded so we can refer to it later, and publicly accessible so anybody can comment on it at any time. I'm not saying that real time TeamSpeak discussions aren't a good way to discuss ideas, but we would prefer it if you have those discussions on TeamSpeak, then come and post the result and arguments for it here. Maybe you could arrange for one person to take notes during the discussion and post them on the forum?

Being upset that we don't stop by TeamSpeak for a chat is like one player being upset that we don't call him up on Skype to ask for his opinion on the game. We've said many times that the forums are our preferred way to receive feedback and have discussions, so I'm not sure why people are still surprised and indignant that we're not often on TeamSpeak. Someone said they feel left out because we don't come on TeamSpeak. How are you left out? We give you an equal opportunity to give us feedback as every other player, and we even told you how we'd prefer you to give us feedback.

When we send out and RC and say something like "Post feedback on the forum", I assumed that implied the question "What do you think of the changes? Post your reply to this question on the forum". Should I write that in the email next time?

Tips when giving us feedback: Post it politely and constructively. Accusing us of ruining the game and trying to get our attention by saying stuff along the lines of "I'm going to play any more until you fix this" doesn't help at all in your arguments, and just makes us take you less seriously. Talking in an accusative tone, (as if we're trying to make the game bad or not going on TeamSpeak just to upset everyone) or talking indignantly also doesn't make us feel like taking your statements seriously.

Examples of good feedback I've seen include The Dark Lord and Leeuwgie. When I read their posts I am left feeling like "This person has well-thought-out arguments and posted their feedback constructively." I actually feel like I would actually like to take the time to have a 1 on 1 conversation with them (or in a group) to explore their ideas further (on the other hand the tone of the players who are demanding us to come on TeamSpeak don't make me feel like having a 1 on 1 conversation with them at all). If you post more constructively and less accusative/negative then we're far more interested in your feedback. Note that I mostly disagree with The Dark Lord and Leeuwgie's opinions on the building unlocks, but I still find their feedback constructive and I would like to learn more about their opinions.

- You received a lot of feedback regarding addressed issues on the forum. I believe you didn't check it yet. Check it at least now viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1282
- All of testers were present on Team Speak, they have decent English and are nice, easy-going people. There were only 2 people missing, you and Krom. Why should we 30 testers on Team Speak chasing you two, hah?
- Yes, if you are not coming on Team Speak you should write everything in the e-mail. I didn't receive any updates via e-mail during the testing. So strange! Why? You are communicating with us through email and forum. Show me where did you address unlocking woodcutter for all the maps? If you did, why didn't you notify us on e-mail? Waiting for clarification.
- Once again. Testing has been finished. No one asked to summarize it. WHY? Be so kind, let me know.
- Dark Lord and To, what kind of discrimination is this? You ask people you like and ignores people who you dont like, this way it works?

I recommend to take all his recommendations into consideration as he is one of the most inteligent and reasonable players around.

I guess, this kind of argumentation will never die out. But the devs don't rely on people, they rely on the persuasive power of the provided points (someone noticed the alliteration here? )
They have thought about your arguments as you see in their replies.

The testing of previous RC has finished and no one requested to summarize the work. May I know why?

Please understand that testing is one of the most frustrating jobs in software development. It looks so easy because you don't need deep insight into the development (which is not entirely true, but ok). But in the end we have to realize that - and I repeat myself here - we don't have any decisive power. They make the work, they get to make the decisions. If we want changes, we are urged to go to the forums and explain why we want this. And we have seen in very many cases that they actually do what we want. Just recently think about +1 shield, or builder rush etc.

Siegfried, this is not an argument at all. It is a reminder. You know that Lewin and Krom are still biased about some certain people in our community and can't get rid of their stereotypes. Communication between testers and programmers is vital whoever they are.
By the way, I dont really feel that they are developers and we dont. We are developers, but we develop the game as a public project, bring new poeple, advertise Remake, making game more popular. This aspect is very important too.
We have provided a lot of feedback with the highest level of responsibility. No one was rude, all post were constructive. All issues were addresse in public. As a reward, we haven't been given a chance to try speed up farms.
We are not testers, we are lab rats. We are getting thrown with new patches which we were not asked before. Build unlock! Go eat eat rats, let us see how you react.

DarkLord... they won't bring old order back... speeding game was something they had in mind, implementing it now in this version.

I trust Krom and Lewin have arguments to counter mine and I hope it's not like you say and they just implemented this 'because they have been wanting to do so for a long time'. I still don't see why we can't have the choice between old and new. I can unlock every building from the start, I can do the most crazy things, but the good old default build order, which everyone is used to, is unaccessible to anyone. How does that make sense?
This new build order is completely unnecessary because it is already possible to speed up the game, plus it will be confusing for players (not to mention that people will forget to build an inn now and then). Bringing variation to early game? I'd say: choose a map with woodcutter unlocked (To's maps for example) or make your own.

Dark, unfortunately it is that "they just implemented this because they have been wanting to do so for a long time"

Btw you already have some approaches for fixing the range-unit-problem? I think the cooldown-timer-for-attacks-idea which i posted in my first post might be one good approach, because it allows full controll of the units and fixes the shoot and halt abuse.

The new ranged-unit mechanics are terrible. It feels so wrong to see my units not respond; it's almost like programmed latency. Pizza's suggestion here is a very good way of fixing this qwerk and still keeping the intended purpose.

Ben, the strange thing is that Lewin was 100% aware of this issue because of the prompt feedback provided by testers. We get this issue now. In fact someone was just unresponsible in the past.

Lewin, I am waiting for your answers. Thank you in advance.

P.s. After reading this post, follow the link and read 20 pages of feedback. I assume you haven't done it before. You are welcome to read it now:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1282
P.p.s Post edited. Some more reflections added.

[thunder]

Sziasztok!

I have to say again. Not bad idea to speed up the game, but specially some maps are there whats really good with the old rules. I agree with Pizza. But i wouldnt say NO on the new things. But Please, the opened school+inn should be optional. And will be good for all players and specially all maps.
(exp:yesterday i buy a BMW X8, but i didnt throw out my LADA1500, just use less time.- Really necessary to destroy the old game mechanism?
BE OPTIONABLE. BE REACH IN VARITIONS.


I m on almost everyday on teamspeak-(when i can), and really those guys never hurt me, but really someties i just crashed their games and etc... i always like to hear them their discusson from the game. They always!!! watch back the replays, sometims more than three times, they analyse the game step by step(sorry they always watch back the ALL building games). They know the whole game. I beilive the teamspeak has the strongest and best players of the KAM. The most clans are on the teamspeak and they are friends, no war between the poples.
I beilive those guys are Peak of Morbach, and Lances of Lauenburg.

Regards!
Thunder /tamás/[/size]

PS: I started to play with this game in 1999...I bought a computer because this game...I still have that...I wait a long time for the second edition. (And this game always save me...)
and i played nearly one year with Reamke(still one month). Im happy to part of this good and friendly community.
Thank you!
t

[Siegfried]

All of testers were present on Team Speak, they have decent English and are nice, easy-going people. There were only 2 people missing, you and Krom. Why should we 30 testers on Team Speak chasing you two, hah?

There should more than 30 testers. I remember that Lewin once said something about 80 names or so on the RC-mailing list. And still people come to the chat asking to become beta-testers. So I guess the number might be even higher now.

Siegfried, this is not an argument at all. It is a reminder. You know that Lewin and Krom are still biased about some certain people in our community and can't get rid of their stereotypes. Communication between testers and programmers is vital whoever they are.
By the way, I dont really feel that they are developers and we dont. We are developers, but we develop the game as a public project, bring new poeple, advertise Remake, making game more popular. This aspect is very important too.
We have provided a lot of feedback with the highest level of responsibility. No one was rude, all post were constructive. All issues were addresse in public. As a reward, we haven't been given a chance to try speed up farms.
We are not testers, we are lab rats. We are getting thrown with new patches which we were not asked before. Build unlock! Go eat eat rats, let us see how you react.

Well, in that point I am sure they will disagree. I don't know if you are a programer yourself, but if you are and you are maintaining a large project, then I bet you would consider it as your own, too. It's not the project of the testers. They do a very important job, but it's only a minor job compared to programming this game. Lew&Krom spent already more than half a decade for this piece of software. It is their project, not ours. We are contributors, not developers.

Yes, I agree that their sight is biased, as is mine and yours, too. But I guess, they are dealing not too bad with this. And if they really make decisions that we completely disagree with: they made the game opensource and ensured public availability. So in the end you can fork it and maintain a 'improved branch' or whatever name you choose. If you do that, the you're a developer and the owner of that branch.

[pawel95]

So just want to say something different also to this RC. I see that you just finished coop making, so you dont need to make 6 AI players and set teams+Locs. However the colors are completly wrong( for sure, randomly). Now I dont know if you have forgot to make it, you didnt read my idea some times before or you just will make it in a version later on ?


pawel95

[Pizzaisgood]

There is also an other possibility which romek came up with which i totally support. Even though the new buildorder makes it possible to make woodcutters/stonemasons after school you can still play the old way by just pretending you would have the old build order. So you just go for the normal school-inn-stonemason-woodcutter-build by just ignoring the new buildorder. This just needs to be clarified before the game starts so everyone will play with the old build-order .
I think this solution is really good because it doesnt need to change back the new unlock-changes and as i can see at the moment only the teamspeakpeople were complaining about it , so im sure they can be honest enough in game to agree on the old build-order in those certain maps and won´t cheat the other guys by building not the old way.
This would come equal to the mutator that dicsoupcan mentioned with the difference that it is no ingame tool to change the starting buildorder, but just an tool by communicating before the game starts.
This agreement would have to be done on the 3 maps golden cliffs , majestic waters and border rivers.
Like this there won´t be a need for rebalancing those maps and also the new changes have to be taken back again. New maps can be made which are balanced for the new buildorder and old ones will either be not affected (like To´s maps) or will just be played as normal by making the agreement before the game starts.
So people who want to play oldschool and want to have the challenge can just go for that agreement which is really no big deal in my oppinion because we have a really nice community which can be honest in games ( for example we never used the shoot and halt abuse for a long time , because we also made an agreement )
Also this gives the mapmakers much more time to rebalance their maps if they want to so they arent forced to act immediatly.

This solution is the solution in my oppinion because it doesn´t need any changes at the current unlock-system, it doesn´t need any more discussions about this unlock-system and like that we can proceed testing the RC with all the maps being as hard as they were before. So please people who want to play old-school : We can just make the agreement before the game starts and everything will be fine for us. And people who want to use the new buildorder can just do it in their games. Like this everyone is happy and nothing has to be changed with the new buildorder.

[Ben]

Personally, I'd have a hard time trusting anyone, so I'd have a hard time with that. When confronted with "cheating," I can just imagine Matt saying, "Come on, it's just a game."

[Siegfried]

@Pizza
nice agreement, I like that.

I cannot help but notice that the TS group actually is the closed microcosm that it appears for some time now.

[Krom]

I just want to have the right balance back in those maps , so either go for the old build-order ( the obviously more unlikely possibility ) or make the stonemason/woodcutter-unlock so that after rebalancing those maps the mapmakers dont have to worry about having to rebalance their map again because of the changing of the buildorder.

KaM Remake is not a diecast, it keeps on improving and changing as time goes. New features require balance changes. We are not yet ready to announce that KaM Remake is no longer a Demo, but a finished slate.

I'm really torn between what I want in the game, and what I think should be in the game. In consideration of this debate, I find that the advocates of the quick start have a good argument; almost convincing me, but then I always remember this:

Bringing variation to early game? I'd say: choose a map with woodcutter unlocked (To's maps for example) or make your own.

However... maybe this isn't good anyway. I suppose that mapmakers have the choice of not giving the players starting food. The game would still be possible, but just not fun. Maybe for the sake of the game, this feature should be allowed (or at least just having the stonemason unlocked at start). I suppose that maps like golden cliffs could have a few less starting trees/timber to preserve difficulty.

For an average person it is hard to remember at least 50% of the maps - which are hard and which are easy to start, so we would not like to have it that way yet. Maybe later if we can that to mapinfo in list?

I do agree that this new unlock is better for speeding up the game, but i also agree that the more hardcore players want a challenge in their building fase. that is why i suggested a classic building unlock mutator for the nostalgia fans and the hardcore players, this way both casual and hardcore can be happy. If you rebalance maps again casual players might run out of wood because they did not pay enough attention to it, wich slows the game down again because they have to wait for wood and start camping more. But if we stay at the new unlock only i shall adapt and hope that maps shall be rebalanced.

This subtle change in unlocking order is such a minor feature that no one except Pros will notice its effect apart from early game speedup. So I see no reason to label it as "Classic KaM mode" just yet.

Now to the lengthy part:

Yes, of course, sado. We could save a lot of time by having several discussion on TS. We didn't because of someone being unreasonable and unresponsible. You know sado, that all 30-40 testers were using TS almost always.

How do you manage to chat in a room with 30-40 active speakers? Maybe they are not online all the time? I believe so. So you suggest that we are supposed to stay in TS for several hours to collect all their opinions? Excuse us, but we have a lot of work and life to do. Thats why emails and forums are our preferred ways of communications - because we can choose time when to access them and everyones opinion is kept.

- You received a lot of feedback regarding addressed issues on the forum. I believe you didn't check it yet. Check it at least now viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1282
- All of testers were present on Team Speak, they have decent English and are nice, easy-going people. There were only 2 people missing, you and Krom. Why should we 30 testers on Team Speak chasing you two, hah?
- Yes, if you are not coming on Team Speak you should write everything in the e-mail. I didn't receive any updates via e-mail during the testing. So strange! Why? You are communicating with us through email and forum. Show me where did you address unlocking woodcutter for all the maps? If you did, why didn't you notify us on e-mail? Waiting for clarification.
- Once again. Testing has been finished. No one asked to summarize it. WHY? Be so kind, let me know.
- Dark Lord and To, what kind of discrimination is this? You ask people you like and ignores people who you dont like, this way it works?

1. Receiving feedback does not means that we are obliged to implement it. We do our analysis and choices based on feedback arguments. You know it took a few pages of this thread just to formulate what exact effect new build order has (Discoupcan's post)
2. Replied above.
3. What kind of updates did you wanted to receive? What do you exactly mean by "unlocking woodcutter for all the maps"? See comments below #########
4. You are here on this forum summarizing the testing as it goes right now. How better could that be? You want to summarize r4297 - provide your summary and see #1
5. Can't speak for TDL or To, but for myself I'm okay with constructive critics and feedback from people I don't like.

By the way, I dont really feel that they are developers and we dont. We are developers, but we develop the game as a public project, bring new poeple, advertise Remake, making game more popular. This aspect is very important too.
We have provided a lot of feedback with the highest level of responsibility. No one was rude, all post were constructive. All issues were addresse in public. As a reward, we haven't been given a chance to try speed up farms.
We are not testers, we are lab rats. We are getting thrown with new patches which we were not asked before. Build unlock! Go eat eat rats, let us see how you react.

I don't recall you communicating with us about including you into a team. You know that teams are made by people who share their views in general. It's hard to volounteerely work with people whom you disagree with (I'm not saying about product vision, but other areas as well, including communication). Perhaps you should be developing your own game then, since you think your contribution is that big that it deserves a developer badge. Maybe you can be a full-blown standalone developer then?
P.S. It's funny to see "No one was rude, all post were constructive" and "Go eat eat rats, let us see how you react" in one paragraph ..

Ben, the strange thing is that Lewin was 100% aware of this issue because of the prompt feedback provided by testers. We get this issue now. In fact someone was just unresponsible in the past.

Lewin, I am waiting for your answers. Thank you in advance.

P.s. After reading this post, follow the link and read 20 pages of feedback. I assume you haven't done it before. You are welcome to read it now:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1282
P.p.s Post edited. Some more reflections added.

Which exact issue do you refer to?
P.S. No need to throw such statements around, it is kind of bad for your reputation, because there are more than enough Lewins posts on the thread to indicate he has read it through more than once.

[Krom]

Sziasztok!
I have to say again. Not bad idea to speed up the game, but specially some maps are there whats really good with the old rules. I agree with Pizza. But i wouldnt say NO on the new things. But Please, the opened school+inn should be optional. And will be good for all players and specially all maps.
(exp:yesterday i buy a BMW X8, but i didnt throw out my LADA1500, just use less time.- Really necessary to destroy the old game mechanism?
BE OPTIONABLE. BE REACH IN VARITIONS.

Speaking about your metaphor, r4179 is always at your service, same as r3392. They are not thrown out.
Yes, we think new unlocking order is superior. So we are looking for a ways to keep it and minimize side-effects.

Well, in that point I am sure they will disagree. I don't know if you are a programer yourself, but if you are and you are maintaining a large project, then I bet you would consider it as your own, too. It's not the project of the testers. They do a very important job, but it's only a minor job compared to programming this game. Lew&Krom spent already more than half a decade for this piece of software. It is their project, not ours. We are contributors, not developers.

Yes, I agree that their sight is biased, as is mine and yours, too. But I guess, they are dealing not too bad with this. And if they really make decisions that we completely disagree with: they made the game opensource and ensured public availability. So in the end you can fork it and maintain a 'improved branch' or whatever name you choose. If you do that, the you're a developer and the owner of that branch.

Thanks for your words, much appreciated

So just want to say something different also to this RC. I see that you just finished coop making, so you dont need to make 6 AI players and set teams+Locs. However the colors are completly wrong( for sure, randomly). Now I dont know if you have forgot to make it, you didnt read my idea some times before or you just will make it in a version later on ? pawel95

Please refresh our memories or show a screenshot. I do not recall the issue with "completely wrong colors"

@Pizza: This is a weak option, cos anyone will free to claim and play otherwise

I cannot help but notice that the TS group actually is the closed microcosm that it appears for some time now.

Interesting speculation. Too bad I can't use TS to peek in there

[sado1]

How do you manage to chat in a room with 30-40 active speakers? Maybe they are not online all the time?

That's true. I never saw more than 20 people in one channel, it sometimes happens there are like 25 people on the server but in different channels (half of the Teamspeak players is Polish and they like to stay in their own channel and talk in Polish). Usual peak is 15 though.

I think I can agree with Siegfried's observation, except the word "closed". We're open to anyone who joins, in fact we've just had a wave of new people who can tell you whether our group is closed or not. Games played by TS guys are another thing though, still as one of the worse players there I think they're usually doing a good job managing the lobbies (as in, they don't kick people if they can avoid it). But true is, that Teamspeak players keep it to themselves and there wouldn't be a problem with making some game rules inside our part of community (well, it happened before, we had games without market etc)

I completely disagree with Mulberry's post.

[Da Revolution]

This change with the unlock order is really not necessary because of the reasons I will explain in this post.

It takes away a lot of variety between maps. Now you got the option whether you play a map with a prebuild town, normal unlock order or for example maps like back in the desert with completely different unlock orders. With this change you'll force everyone to play one way (yes prebuild is still possible, this could actually be the solution for your slow gamespeed).

Second, I took a look at the list of most popular maps in 4179. Almost half of the maps played there is on maps where you don't have buildings unlocked from the start except for the school. The number one map is even one of the slowest and most campy maps around, Cursed Ravine. They even got the choice there to play a To map like Back in the Desert or Dead of Winter which are way faster.

Third, this change will probably really confusing for many people because many of them play the game since the original version. They are used to the old unlock order and I think it might be possible they want to keep it even though it's just nostalgia. You might lose players because they expect the game to be as close to the original as possible.

As last. This change will take away a lot of the challenge of the building part. Yes you could re-balance maps, but this will still make it a lot easier than it was before. I understand that you guys want to make the game easy to learn/play. Anyway taking away the challenge from the building phase is taking away the challenge of the game for me since I'm mainly focusing on the building part. I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

I really think you should consider speeding up the game by creating certain maps. For example with pre-build towns with stuff on the most logical spot. Another way might be unlocking those stuff in certain maps (like it kind of is now with back in the desert etc.). Anyway I think the best option would be (dicsoupcan's suggestion) some kind of button to toggle this unlockorder.

I agree with pizza that the only option left for us when this unlockorder will be final is to play with our own rules. This will make playing with our group way harder for new people in the community for sure, but it's probably the only way to keep the games a bit harder.