Trollable features in the next release

[Lewin]

There are two multiplayer features in the next release which I fear might be used to troll other players online, meaning nobody will trust those features with random players. I'd like to discuss how likely you think this is, and what we might do to make it harder.

1. Modify a popular map (or make your own map) to benefit yourself (give a certain location more resources, or have a script that checks your nickname), then host a lobby and ask randoms to download your modded map and play it with you. It will be clear to the players that they are using a modified version of the map and have to download it from the host, however they might not realise that modified maps might have been abused in this way and so just click download. The best idea I have is to add a confirmation dialogue for downloading maps: "Warning: Downloaded maps might be modified to benefit the player sending them to you. Be cautious when downloading maps from players you do not trust". I think the solution to this problem is about educating players to be cautious about downloaded maps, but maybe there's a better way than my confirmation dialogue?

2. The "return to lobby" feature is great for replacing a player who quit before the game was over, or to pause the game for a short time. We already have voting so the game cannot return to the lobby unless the majority of players agree to it. However, once it has returned to the lobby the host has absolute control again. They can kick players, select to a different save/map, etc. (which some hosts might do, especially if the host's team is losing). Do you think this might turn out to be a problem and cause people to not trust this feature with random players? I'm not sure what we can do about it anyway.

I'd like to ask everyone here to not troll people in these ways, lets keep the game as friendly as possible.

[pawel95]

True, the main rule is here also: Play with known people Never thought about your 2. point though, but true if the host get attacked from a "surprising horse rush" he could just go back to the lobby and start another save/autosave. However even if the host would be a random guy, I would just ask the other 6 people to join my new lobby and get a replacement for the trolling host There is always a point to solve that. It will be just harder when a group of people want to troll you this way :-/

I can´t think about a different dialogue right now. I think your is just fine. I would only like to have an "accept" "decline" and "don´t show this warning again" button maybe

[Tiank]

However even if the host would be a random guy, I would just ask the other 6 people to join my new lobby and get a replacement for the trolling host

Exactly. I would do the same thing .

About that first point, I agree with Pawel, dialogue should have an option "don't show this message again". It might be annoying seeing it over and over again .

[Krom]

Nobody reads message boxes, especially when they are with a single OK button. No proposed solution, sry.

[sado1]

Well... could we somehow detect potential trolling behavior? I mean, this kind of trolling has a couple of things that make it not that hard to be identified... the map is similar to an official map, one of the players has an advantage which can be easily checked (more resources in storehouse, for example)... can't we just detect that and take some desired action? Let's try to make a list of potential trolling behavior, guys, and then think on how to prevent it:
-adding stuff to storehouse - fairly easy to detect
-adding some iron/coal/gold/trees/fish/... to 1 location only - can we even differentiate an "easy edition" (when a random adds lots of resources to all locs) map from such a thing?
-name-checking script - quite obvious to detect it, since you need to use a specific command (states.nickname or whatever it was)
-adding units - easy to check?
-placing buildings - easy
-relocating storehouse - hm. I don't know if we can detect it without disabling such modifications for good.

I need to say that if we followed my initial proposition and had an official maps folder that is checksummed (and is checking the sums with lobby server), and it is impossible to change/overwrite those maps, it would be fairly easy to compare those maps automatically (would it?). And we'd have an added benefit of people not being able to upload their modified versions of original maps under the original name (I don't want randoms to download a bullcrap version of my map and think that it is my creation, sorry...) This way we could even think of some way for updating(/adding?) individual maps for all the Remake users, but it is obviously optional and not a part of this topic.

[Lewin]

Well... could we somehow detect potential trolling behavior?

IMO detecting trolling won't work. There's almost an infinite number of ways to achieve it (especially with dynamic script), and the consequences of false positives is bad. There are legitimate cases where you might modify a map to be unbalanced and send it to your friends, for example if I am introducing KaM to some friends who haven't played it before, I might give them some buildings and extra resources on a popular map then send it to them.

I need to say that if we followed my initial proposition and had an official maps folder that is checksummed (and is checking the sums with lobby server), and it is impossible to change/overwrite those maps, it would be fairly easy to compare those maps automatically (would it?). And we'd have an added benefit of people not being able to upload their modified versions of original maps under the original name (I don't want randoms to download a bullcrap version of my map and think that it is my creation, sorry...) This way we could even think of some way for updating(/adding?) individual maps for all the Remake users, but it is obviously optional and not a part of this topic.

Protecting the official map names won't help. If someone modifies Frozen Waters and calls it "Frozen Waters 2" or "Frozen Waters Update" it's no different than if it's called Frozen Waters.

[pawel95]

Just a technical question
Wouldn't it be possible to set passwords for maps in the Remake editor? Everyone can watch and open a map but only with a password (that the map author set, when he made the map) the map would be copyable or editable?
So we wouldn't need an extra folder but to just save ALL maps from editing, even when you download a new map.

This way mapmakers also would really have to ask for permission, if they wanna copy some parts from another map

[Lewin]

Just a technical question
Wouldn't it be possible to set passwords for maps in the Remake editor? Everyone can watch and open a map but only with a password (that the map author set, when he made the map) the map would be copyable or editable?
So we wouldn't need an extra folder but to just save ALL maps from editing, even when you download a new map.

This way mapmakers also would really have to ask for permission, if they wanna copy some parts from another map

Yes, but it would be trivial to bypass it by recompiling the game (someone can upload a "password remover" tool). If the game is able to read the map file so you can view and play it, then it can also edit it. We could encrypt it with a password, but then you would also need that password to view/play the map.

I don't see why we need to protect official maps anyway. When Krom's editor did that it caused problems, and when the protection was removed nothing bad happened (there was also a tool that removed the protection). The problem of downloading intentionally biased maps still applies to new maps as well as modified official ones. Players might assume that the Remake only downloads officially endorsed maps, or not realise that people might be trying to get an unfair advantage. We need to warn players about these dangers when they used file transfers.

[RandomLyrics]

Hmm yea you right, we can warn people and put as you say "download confirm" ( check box with disabling it in options ). If we will meet with such a unfair tactics from players then we can figure out something sensible. :> for now its really hard, u can easily overwrite maps. For now only reasonable solution is to warn players that they should be caution what they downloading

[WhiteWolf]

nvm, didnt saw that was already proposed.

[Leeuwgie]

Hmm yea you right, we can warn people and put as you say "download confirm" ( check box with disabling it in options ). If we will meet with such a unfair tactics from players then we can figure out something sensible. :> for now its really hard, u can easily overwrite maps. For now only reasonable solution is to warn players that they should be caution what they downloading

I think warning them won't help at all. Randoms will just copy over originals, they just want to play without thinking about the consequences. I don't want to sound negative about this but I have the feeling it will be one big mess when this option is released publicly. Here on TS we know each other and can detect trolls easy, in the public release I fear it will be an impossible task. Is it still an option to completely remove this option from being released? I don't see harm in sharing saves btw, only maps.

[Lewin]

I think warning them won't help at all. Randoms will just copy over originals, they just want to play without thinking about the consequences. I don't want to sound negative about this but I have the feeling it will be one big mess when this option is released publicly. Here on TS we know each other and can detect trolls easy, in the public release I fear it will be an impossible task. Is it still an option to completely remove this option from being released? I don't see harm in sharing saves btw, only maps.

Downloading maps no longer copies over original maps. Downloaded maps go into a separate MapsDL folder, where you can have multiple versions of the same map, and play the game with which ever version the host is using. To move the map to your official list (and overwrite an original map if you chose to) you must go to the map editor menu and move one of the downloaded maps to your official maps list. So randoms can happily download and play a modified original map without overwriting that map in their MapsMP folder. The map won't even appear on their maps list when they host.

Removing map downloads is not out of the question, but it is undoubtedly a very useful feature for lots of reasons, so I want to keep it unless there's a very good reason not to.

[sado1]

(I'll probably sum up everyone's mind on this issue: ) I am really afraid that we're gonna pull another x3 speed here, but the downloads feature is so nice that we simply cannot remove it.

[Krom]

Can we mark downloaded maps with some sort of an icon, or a different font tint (e.g. grey), indicating, that they are not proven to be checked by experts?
So that if some players want a fair gameplay they choose official maps, and if they dont care - they can play anything.

[Lewin]

Krom pointed out that it is confusing to not be able to host maps you downloaded, unless you go to the map editor menu and move them across (which is not obvious, if I just downloaded a map it makes sense that I could play it right now). So I'm testing showing both downloaded and official maps in the lobby map selector, but making the official (MapsMP) maps gold, while the downloaded maps (MapsDL) are silver. Here's how it looks when you have lots of downloaded maps:


Similarly when you join a lobby, the map name will be gold/silver depending on whether it is in your official or downloaded folder. So it's clear for everyone whether this is a "trusted" map or a downloaded one.

It doesn't completely solve the problem that people will be mostly unaware that downloaded maps might be biased towards the host though.

What do you think?