Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **03 Oct 2009, 19:23**

How the fighting system works is one of the mysterys of Knight and Merchants, but we have to find out how it works for Lewins, Kroms and Harolds Remake.

This thread is to collect facts and statements about the battle system.

A short summary about the facts of the german guide book(Atk Formular, unit stats).
I quote my older post

There are 3 kinds of stats: Lifepoints(if 0 unit die), armor strengh(how heavy the armor is) and attack power.

Also there are 5 kinds of attack positions! It's a multiplier for the direction from where you attack the enemy.
front side: 1
diagonal front side: 2
edgewise(from the unit left or right): 3
diagonal back side: 4
back side: 5

The Attack formula is as follow:
( Attackpower x Attackposition ) / Armor Strengh of the Enemy

After this formula there is a random value between 0 and 100. If the result of the Attack formula is bigger then the random value, the unit gets one lifepoint removed. If all lifepoints removed the unit will die!

I add a short list of the units(only TSK units)
Sorry if the names are not correct, I dont want look after the right names :/
I use this shortcuts:
Lifepoints=LP
Armor Strengh= AS
Attack power= Atk

Miliz:
LP: 3
AS: 1
Atk: 35

Axefighter
LP: 3
AS: 2
Atk: 35

Swordman
LP: 3
AS: 3
Atk: 55

Babarian:
LP: 4
AS: 1
Atk: 75

Lance carrier:
LP: 3
AS: 2
Atk: 25 (+55 against horses= 80)

Pike carrier:
LP: 3
AS: 3
Atk: 35 (+80 against horses= 115)

Bowman:
LP: 1
AS: 2
Atk: 60

crossbowman:
LP: 1
AS: 3
Atk: 120

axefighter at horse(sry no idea xD )
LP: 4
AS: 2
Atk: 35

Knight:
LP: 4
AS: 3
Atk: 55

I hope there were no changes with the official patches

I had time to make some statistics about the fighting systems

My units:
1 Babarian
Enemy:
Knight (4 lifepoints, Armor 3)

The enemy has alliance to me but I'm not, so I can attack him without changing his direction.

I attacked him from behind(direction multiplikator x5) that the attack of babarian(75x5=375) is so high that they can destroy one lifepoint per hit.
That's the theory

[[[I noticed that there are sometimes 5 Hits needed to kill him. I assume that there is a 50%~ chance to miss the first hit. That appears also if I attack Miliz, Lancemen or Swordmans but not at bowmans. They are 100% one hit dead if a babarian attacks from behind. I think there is a 50% dodge for all combat units.]]]

[[[I also checked the lifepoint regeneration but that's more difficult. First problem is that dodge thing... so it's not easy to find out when a unit lost a lifepoint and regenerated a new one. ]]]

[[[I think Units regenerate Lifepoints after they loose their first point. I made a few tests and my theory is that there is a regeneration of one point every 10-15 seconds. ]]]

Because you cant make a break until the unit dies I made this test formation:

I'm Blue, Red is friendly to me but I can attack. Green is friendly to red but not to me. If I attack with one babarian he can hit 1-4 times the knight before he get killed! So I can calculate a break and check then how many hits the enemy can stand.
[[[Another little problem is that I dont have a "stop watch" to get exactly times...
If you would like to test it I can give you one resolution:
Attack with one babarian, if he can hit the knight 3 times before he dies attacks with a 2nd babarian and make 2 hits more. I wrote above about the 50% dodge they sometimes have... if you can hit him 5 times he will die with the next hit. I counted the seconds from the first hit and it were about 15seconds~]]]

@Bowmen
I made a few tests to find out how is the hit ratio of bowmen. I think there is no difference in range to the target. I create a small statistic where I attacked 10 bowmen with my bowman from behind(5x60atk=300/2=150-> would be one hit kill) and got a few one shots but also a few times about 6-8 arrows needed... the average is at 35-40%

Cross bowman shots 20 bowmen with 1 shot...

EDIT: Old or maybe wrong informations are tagged with [[[ italic text ]]]

PostPosted: **03 Oct 2009, 20:10**

Nice

Interesting to know that bowman don't dodge - if I understand correctly that means they are basically twice as weak as their stats would imply

PostPosted: **04 Oct 2009, 12:12**

May I ask howmany of these experiments you have performed? Because I'm still a little sceptic about the 'dodge': It might be a sideeffect of the randomness which you might have interpreted falsly.

And you say the barbarian sometimes killed the knight in 5 hits, but what other number of hits have you seen before the knight died?

PostPosted: **04 Oct 2009, 15:07**

You can easily calculate with the attack formula how many hits needed.

Babarian Atk x direction / armor strengh

75 x 5 / 3 = 125
125 is always bigger then the random value of 1-100. So every hit
Knight has 4 lifepoints-> 4 Hits till death

I did this for statistic 50 times and got 23x5hits and 27x4hits. 50%~
I tested this also on lance carrier, cavalar, axefighter, swordman, miliz with the same resolution. Except with bow/cross bow mans.

I tested today again and found a bug in KaM, dont know if this is a known bug. If you attack the knight from the diagonal backside you have this formula
75x4/3= 100 -> Each hit destroys 1 Lifepoint. Should be like you attack from the back side but there is a bug!

I create a short video to show it(1,5mb)
http://rapidshare.de/files/48465474/kam.wmv.html

The bug is, if you attack diagonal from the right side you can kill him with 4-5 hits! But if you attack from the back-left side, the knight seems to be immortal... It's always the left the back side for every unit and Bowmans too!
I use v. 1.6

Sorry if thats a all known bug but I never saw this

You can also see on this video how 2 Babarians need 4 Hits and one 5.

Greets

Humbelum

PostPosted: **04 Oct 2009, 15:47**

That is a strange bug. I had never seen it before. Does it happen with other units too? Or is it just barbarian vs. knight.

Maybe the random value isn't that random and is allmost everytime 100

PostPosted: **04 Oct 2009, 16:50**

it happens on other units too! My babarian needed 8 hits to kill a cross bow man(normaly one hit kill)

I think the multiplier of the direction is wrong for this side. It cant be the random value because the attack valua is over 100(at knight exactly 100)

Edit: If someone want to test without creating a new map I uploaded mine. Not for all kinds of experiments but its enough for the first.

http://rapidshare.de/files/48469939/FightSim.rar.html

Edit2: Okay now it's confirmed: The whole left side needs more hits than the right side. I made an experiment with Barbar vs Miliz and this value is for all direction(except frontal) over 100.

I made also a photo of the direction multiplier from the guide book:

In this book is also the information about the random value of 1-100.

PostPosted: **18 Oct 2009, 12:29**

Another kind of direction bug is the distance for Bow/Crossbow Men.

This shows the distance needed before the bow men shoot(same distance for crossbow etc)

If the flag leader has the right distance, the rows behind him shoot too. I think up to 3-4 rows behind the leader.

PostPosted: **03 Nov 2009, 15:57**

Another kind of direction bug is the distance for Bow/Crossbow Men.

I wouldn't say it's a bug. If this difference regarding directions wouldn't be set then when a bowman approaches a crossbowman, he would always die after taking one shot, unless the bowmen's shooting freqence reaches the twice of crossbowmen's (if so it's righteous because of ATKs). Now at least our bowman can get around the crossbowman and give at least one shot to him, having a sure chance to survive.
This bug-like thing helped me with my attacking strategy many times.

PostPosted: **03 Nov 2009, 16:40**

I'm not sure that you understand the problem. If there are two Bowmen, one from the right side and one from the left side like in the picture above. If there is a distance of 9 fields, the right bowman will shoot but the left wont do!

And I hope you dont call this strategy to shoot at an enemy who doesn't show any reaction... that's no tacitc, that's abusing the game mechanics.

And what's about multiplayer? Is it fair that the player on the bottom side has an direction advantage with bow/crossbowmen against the player on the top of the map? I dont think so.

PostPosted: **03 Nov 2009, 16:57**

Do any missions depend on this behaviour?

PostPosted: **03 Nov 2009, 17:53**

There is no Mission which depends this behavior, but it makes them more easier then they should be.

In TSK Mission 18 for example. The crossbowmen behind a mountain you can easily kill with one bowman. I didnt remember the missions well... And I dont have time to check this... maybe with the mission editor

In my opinion this should be possible in an "easy" mode that the player has an advantage, but there should also be a normal, fair mode.

Edit:
I checked the TSK Missions now:
You can also kill the bowmen in Mission 5
In Mission 15 the Player4(Crossbow between the towers)
Mission 18(look above)
Mission 19(Crossbows on the plattform)
Mission 20

Mission 19 shows how senseless this is. Crossbowmen an a plattform which is a few meters/feet tall, are not in range when they got shot...

Furthermore, the most maps where bow/crossbowmen can easily shot are one of the last maps... and I dont think that should be so easy!

PostPosted: **03 Nov 2009, 22:46**

There is no Mission which depends on this behavior, but it makes them more easier then they should be.

On the one hand any of single-player missions could have been edited like computer has the southern area, e.g. 011 (that I was fighting for 2 years) if this aspect of hardness would've been so important.
On the other hand multiplayer missions are controlled by the same battle system as single-player ones and the problem I raised above gets more serious when a human player's bowman wants to attack another human's crossbowman, or you must always gather twice many archers as your opponent's crossbowmen.

Mission 19 shows how senseless this is. Crossbowmen on a platform which is a few meters/feet tall, are not in range when they got shot...

This is not the problem I mentioned. I was talking about directions in 2D (plane). Actually range advantage in height I would set zero or positive to those who are standing on higher.

Furthermore, the most maps where bow/crossbowmen can easily shot are one of the last maps... and I dont think that should be so easy!

Again, all missions could have been set by so setting directons that computer owns the south. In that case none of them would be too easy, leastwise not out of range differences of directions.

In my opinion this should be possible in an "easy" mode that the player has an advantage, but there should also be a normal, fair mode.

I agree to have different levels of difficultiness. Challenges shall always make a game more exciting.

PostPosted: **03 Nov 2009, 23:56**

On the one hand any of single-player missions could have been edited like computer has the southern area, e.g. 011 (that I was fighting for 2 years) if this aspect of hardness would've been so important.

Yes, but then most of the maps must completly edited.
In Mission 20 are a few crossbows in front of the watch towers. With this direction it's senseless. But this should be a more difficult part, cause you couldnt draw the enemy without getting shot.

On the other hand multiplayer missions are controlled by the same battle system as single-player ones and the problem I raised above gets more serious when a human player's bowman wants to attack another human's crossbowman, or you must always gather twice many archers as your opponent's crossbowmen.

I'm not sure that I understand you right, but you are always talking about bowman vs crossbowman. Both have the same range, but who wins decides the direction from where they come. If you come from the right or bottom you have 1 field range more.

Mission 19 shows how senseless this is. Crossbowmen on a platform which is a few meters/feet tall, are not in range when they got shot...
This is not the problem I mentioned. I was talking about directions in 2D (plane). Actually range advantage in height I would set zero or positive to those who are standing on higher.

Lol, I tried to say that the problem is that they dont get an advantage for the height of the plattform. My bad english :/

Furthermore, the most maps where bow/crossbowmen can easily shot are one of the last maps... and I dont think that should be so easy!
Again, all missions could have been set by so setting directons that computer owns the south. In that case none of them would be too easy, leastwise not out of range differences of directions.

I posted this problem after I build an own mission. I create the map twice, cause I noticed the direction bug too late. I send you the 2 missions via pm. The first one(from south) is very easy... the second one is more difficult.

PostPosted: **04 Nov 2009, 01:07**

I send you the 2 missions via pm.

Thanks very much. I know how much work it requires to construct a complete and exciting mission, as I never succeeded to finish any of mine.

I'm not sure that I understand you right, but you are always talking about bowman vs crossbowman. Both have the same range, but who wins decides the direction from where they come. If you come from the right or bottom you have 1 field range more.

Yes, you're absolutely right, I was saying what would be if this "bug" didn't exist.

PostPosted: **10 Mar 2010, 21:20**

Okay, lets start again to find some informations about the fighting system!

What we have to investigate is:
?Is there a dodge for the first hit?
?How many seconds is the lifepoint regeneration?

?What is the hit ratio of bow/crossbowmen

@Krom, Lewin or harold
Is the attack time for each unit the same? And could you tell me how long it is? This could help to calculate how long the time for lifepoint regeneration is.

Edit: I try to correct wrong facts(if there are some) of my older posts tomorrow.

Knights and Merchants.net Forum

KaM Fighting system analyses

KaM Fighting system analyses